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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers (Read 976 times)
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #15 - Apr 20th, 2026 at 4:04pm
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watchthewind wrote on Apr 20th, 2026 at 1:41pm:
Could you ever really walk into a gunshop and purchase a suitable rifle? (Even in the Coors days?)

Yes.  In San Diego, until it closed in 1988 the Last Frontier gun shop in Valley Center and its predecessor, the original Frontier Gun Shop at Swift and University in North Park, usually had schuetzen rifles for sale, often more than one.  Other shops would have them from time to time as well.

  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #16 - Apr 20th, 2026 at 7:32pm
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You get one built by Bo Clerke and Ron Long in the Coors era. Ruger had SS and Browning came out with the B78. Not what you could call target rifles but, something you could get your feet wet with. So, you could go into a gun store and by a SS but, NOT a target rifle for BSing.

My first target rifle, in '85, was a Clerke HW. It was extremely accurate and I still have it.

You can still get built to order rifles but, finding something in a gun store, when you need it, is, and was back then, a dream, even in the greater LA area, where I got my first one.

But, like everything else, if the demand is there the supply will follow.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #17 - Apr 20th, 2026 at 7:57pm
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bnice wrote on Apr 19th, 2026 at 8:57pm:
I’m surprised no one mentioned re-entry matches! That’s probably one of the biggest differences. Cf matches Both use center of bullet hole for bench and both use tangent to the line for offhand. RF is the issue for center of the hole vs tangent.


What Bob said.  ISSA matches are shoulder to shoulder for the most part.   
Some of the side or "fun" matches are reentry.  I personally would have no problem scoring Rimfire Benchrest as "half a caliber in".

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Joe
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #18 - Apr 20th, 2026 at 8:07pm
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It makes sense to me. Offhand single shot rifle match shooting is alive and well in Virginia not under ASSRA sanction. Look at the match reports it’s a form of competition  that’s nearly extinct under ASSRA management. We used to have strong ASSRA offhand competition in North Carolina,, Virginia Pennsylvania and Maryland.  

It’s my impression that ISSA has an active group of offhand shooters. There are other offhand competitions that are going well too. Sillouette with lever actions and more, bringing offhand back would increase membership and an entire group of new shooters. If it takes merging and adjusting  competition rules its better than slowly shutting down

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #19 - Apr 20th, 2026 at 8:31pm
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I dont think Targets are really an issue. ISSA targets used to only go out as far as the ASSRA targets do. it was a good change instead of the "score it a 10 if on paper". The red line is also a good change to give you a chance to see if the shot nicks the target. That said Randy made the comment that the ISSA is all about match shooting. That is the difference between the two org.s. I grew up a match (shoulder to shoulder) shooter. I think the ASSRA is a completely different style of match shooting, its more relaxed, with no time limits, re-entrys, shooting what match you want when or if you want. I like it but I like the good old match shooting to. Why do you think we should merge to make changes to each other? If anything maybe  ASSRA clubs  (and Etna) should have a few ISSA style matches a year, like regionals. The ISSA to me has not helped it self through the years by not having memberships (funding?) and things to make people see whats going on (you have to promote yourself to be noticed), as Randy stated NO active website or magazine. Most people don't know who they are. They are bigger out west because they continue to stay at Raton but that has not helped them grow. Its expensive to go to Raton, especially for people to travel from the far east even the midwest. But thats true to go to Etna for the people out west. Also the matches in Raton have changed and going away from Offhand (because we are all getting Older) and yet you want to get rid of coats which can help keep us in the game longer? Well JMO but I think we need to just look at what we have and see what is causing the declines instead of thinking joining is going to make a big difference in interest. 

Again JMO which isnt worth much.
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #20 - Apr 21st, 2026 at 3:41am
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let me ask this question:

How will you ever get new members, especially shooters, if no one ever hears about this sport?

You have to have some sort of promotion! And a committed promoter!

I know that there are some YouTube video's How many I don't know but, I don't think there are very many. More of those would help. 

I think in this day, that one or more Pod Cast's would be most beneficial. Get well known people to appear on the Pod Cast and at least appear to be interested in our rifles and how they are shot. Show picture and talk about the "Glory days" including Coors. Talk about how much money there was to be won and pictures of the old clubs and events.

If you can't stay up with the times and you can't or won't promote what your doing, Your doomed to failure.

One other thing, for collectors, if the popularity increases so does the value and I've noticed that the original rifles aren't holding their value like they should.   

Again, you have to know about the rifles to collect them.

These are facts and they have to be dealt with or the sport dies, with or w/o a union of the two groups.

  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #21 - Apr 21st, 2026 at 3:52pm
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I've been into old single shot target rifles for many decades now, and back when I started scheutzen rifles were still tough to find, and expensive. BPCR type rifles for mid or long range were much easier to find, and still are much easier to find. 
Nobody today shows an offering for offhand scheutzen rifles, and if they did you'd have to wait a long time while they built it. That's simply because of the lack of demand for that type of rifle, and the demand is lower because they're purpose built and aren't something a guy uses for anything besides matches. Many guys use their BPCR rifles for matches, but also use them for hunting occasionally. I know I loved hunting with single shots that I shot in long range shoots also. But I'm also a guy who took my Ballard Union Hill in .38-55 out and shot a mule deer with it.
In my younger days, with a bunch of small kids my gun budget was extremely limited, and so was my time. But I set aside what I could in funds and time to acquire some nice old single shots I still own. I'm not sure most younger guys are willing to do the same these days? I've had 5 nice old single shot rifles on the table at our local collector gun show the last two months and nobody even asked to pick one up to look at. But I put an 1893 Marlin on the table Sunday and it was gone before the show started at my asking price.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #22 - Apr 21st, 2026 at 8:31pm
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I think any cross over with other shooting organizations would be beneficial. 

The mutual interests and camaraderie is very much a part of the shooting sports.

I've only observed a couple of matches and never competed in one so take whatever I have to say with a grain.

All the folks here at this FORUM are superior, that's one of the reasons that makes ASSRA so successful. 

Whatever the event, match or otherwise,  I think it would be good to set up a Q&A table that gets manned by a rotating number of guys (maybe for 30 minutes each)
that welcomes observers questions about the sport.

I know if I go to the range it can be uncomfortable to strike up a conversation and start asking a lot of questions with a stranger. 
If there were some sort opportunity to comfortably incorporate the exchange of information at the events it might go a long way to promote the shooting sports. 

If it were not for a super friendly and helpful gent, Chris Christensen whom I met at the range one day, and many others like him, I might not have developed a lifelong interest in Single Shots. 

I can recall having gone to the Wittington Center to observe a BPCR even.
One of the participants from New Jersey even let me take a couple shots at the chickens. 

Just an idea..!

Like I said I've only observed a couple of matches so this may already be part of the average shooting event..
=======================
That said I belong to a pilots organization where we have fly-ins and invite the high school students and anyone else with an interest to come to the airport on certain days for Q&A sessions. 

We have tables set up, manned by pilots of all backgrounds, to talk about everything aviation. These opportunities really help generate additional interest.


  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #23 - Apr 21st, 2026 at 8:52pm
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We need to promote the sport and make it easier to get started. We would be better off collaborating as opposed to arguing over rules which would only result in friction which would be counterproductive .
My two cents fwiw
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #24 - Apr 21st, 2026 at 9:16pm
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Oh but arguing is so American.   Smiley

Think what you want but IMHO the ISSA is never likely to merge with the ASSRA.  First, as I pointed out above (in a post that somehow disappeared) most of the ISSA is already part of the ASSRA, so there's little to gain there.

Second, as some people have sort of pointed out, there really isn't an ISSA in the same sense as there is an ASSRA.  We are really a few regional matches and the (Inter)National matches in Raton in the summer.  Despite what's above, we do have an active website, just not much activity to put up there aside from match scores.   Anything else that needs to be or can be dealt with online is already on this forum.  

(and, to dispel another rumor from above, the ISSA has not turned away from off-hand shooting.  Some of us just go too old to shoot standing so we started a benchrest only track so those folks would have something to do during the offhand matches.)

I now return you to your discussion of differences.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #25 - yesterday at 10:16am
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RJ-35-40 wrote on Apr 21st, 2026 at 8:31pm:
I think any cross over with other shooting organizations would be beneficial. 

The mutual interests and camaraderie is very much a part of the shooting sports.

I've only observed a couple of matches and never competed in one so take whatever I have to say with a grain.

All the folks here at this FORUM are superior, that's one of the reasons that makes ASSRA so successful. 

Whatever the event, match or otherwise,  I think it would be good to set up a Q&A table that gets manned by a rotating number of guys (maybe for 30 minutes each)
that welcomes observers questions about the sport.

I know if I go to the range it can be uncomfortable to strike up a conversation and start asking a lot of questions with a stranger. 
If there were some sort opportunity to comfortably incorporate the exchange of information at the events it might go a long way to promote the shooting sports. 

If it were not for a super friendly and helpful gent, Chris Christensen whom I met at the range one day, and many others like him, I might not have developed a lifelong interest in Single Shots. 

I can recall having gone to the Wittington Center to observe a BPCR even.
One of the participants from New Jersey even let me take a couple shots at the chickens. 


When I go to the club range to shoot a scheutzen rifle there are almost always a few guys who are curious about what I'm shooting, but most seem hesitant to come over and ask questions. If I bring in a new scheutzen rifle to the club house on volunteer day most people don't take a second look at it, and those who do are baffled by what they're seeing. 
Our monthly collector gun shows are pretty much the same thing. I get people who are extremely interested, but most walk right by any display of scheutzen rifles with puzzled looks on their faces.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #26 - yesterday at 11:23am
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I have lost count of how many times I have been shooting anything from a Stevens 44 in 25-20 to a 32-40 or 38-55 all with traditional scopes when someone walks by and asks if it is a 45-70. Must seem mildly interested when I explain breech seating.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #27 - yesterday at 3:37pm
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RJ-35-40 wrote on Apr 21st, 2026 at 8:31pm:
I think any cross over with other shooting organizations would be beneficial. 

The mutual interests and camaraderie is very much a part of the shooting sports.

I've only observed a couple of matches and never competed in one so take whatever I have to say with a grain.

All the folks here at this FORUM are superior, that's one of the reasons that makes ASSRA so successful. 

Whatever the event, match or otherwise,  I think it would be good to set up a Q&A table that gets manned by a rotating number of guys (maybe for 30 minutes each)
that welcomes observers questions about the sport.

I know if I go to the range it can be uncomfortable to strike up a conversation and start asking a lot of questions with a stranger. 
If there were some sort opportunity to comfortably incorporate the exchange of information at the events it might go a long way to promote the shooting sports. 

If it were not for a super friendly and helpful gent, Chris Christensen whom I met at the range one day, and many others like him, I might not have developed a lifelong interest in Single Shots. 

I can recall having gone to the Wittington Center to observe a BPCR even.
One of the participants from New Jersey even let me take a couple shots at the chickens. 

Just an idea..!

Like I said I've only observed a couple of matches so this may already be part of the average shooting event..
=======================
That said I belong to a pilots organization where we have fly-ins and invite the high school students and anyone else with an interest to come to the airport on certain days for Q&A sessions. 

We have tables set up, manned by pilots of all backgrounds, to talk about everything aviation. These opportunities really help generate additional interest.



  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #28 - yesterday at 5:14pm
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I want to respond to the comments about rifle availability.  We are constitutionally bound to preserve the single shot rifle style of shooting from the end of the American Civil War to the beginning of World War I.  Even in those days it was uncommon to be able to walk into your local gun shop and buy a top end Schuetzen rifle… Marlin, Stevens, and Winchester made some, but in most cases a shooter had to place an order, either with one of those factories or with one of the custom makers and wait to have one built.  
Currently, if you wish to be competitive in any of the clay target sports, you buy a high dollar gun, then spend more money having it fitted to your needs.

If you want to be competitive at golf, you start with a good (read “expensive”) set of clubs, then constantly spend more money on the next best thing.

Don’t even get me started on racing, where speed and competitiveness are measured in cubic dollars.

The problem we have is that our game just doesn’t have widespread appeal.  We can do what we can to “sell” it, or we can watch it die… how many of you are organizing local shoots?  I have (for the last decade) but try as I might, my participants are fewer and fewer each year, and new shooters are scarce. 
I have no answers, and though I am still interested, I don’t know how we can bring new interest to the associations. 
Charlie Shaeff
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #29 - yesterday at 7:08pm
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A movie like Quigley Down Under or Jeremiah Johnson set against the background of a Schuetzenfest would be good.
Joe /
  
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