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paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry (Read 470 times)

marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 17857 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #15 - yesterday at 3:33pm	Print Post
	If you're seeing intact patches on fired bullets the bullet diameter is too small for the bore diameter of the gun. A properly sized paper patch bullet should be sized to bore diameter so the patch fills the grooves, and the lands cut the patch so it falls free after exiting the muzzle.

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bullshop Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 315 Joined: Sep 14^th, 2017	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #16 - yesterday at 8:06pm	Print Post
	No not seeing patches on the bullet after firing but finding pieces of patch material within about 10 to 20 feet from the shooting bench. As I said earlier I believe the patch thickness has some bearing as I use 9 lb, 16 lb, and 24 lb cotton bond paper depending on the application. The heavier paper is used mostly but not exclusively for high power smokeless powder loads.


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bullshop Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 315 Joined: Sep 14^th, 2017	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #17 - yesterday at 8:30pm	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote yesterday at 12:57pm: Do you suppose there is a reason why grease groove bullets totally replaced paper patched bullets? I disagree with your " totally replaced " observation. For a time in BPC competition PP bullets were dominant. The reason is ballistic coefficient. A smooth bullet of the same profile as a grooved bullet packs more weight in the same length which raises the BC. The top shooters meaning the winners were using PP bullets and as always the lesser shooters were emulating them. At some point the advantage of improved BC of the smooth bullet gave way to simplicity. So it seems to go in cycles as in the days of the demise of the American bison the PP bullet was dominant as I believe most if not all the ammo supplied by the Sharps company used a PP bullet. If you read from Leo Remiger's The Encyclopedia Of Buffalo Hunters you find that most supply runs included powder, pig lead and patching paper. I found it interesting that the softest lead possible was preferred because it didn't shoot through so was often recovered under the hide on the off side where as hardened lead would more often shoot through and be lost. Then for a time PP did seem to go out of fashion but was revived in the early days of BPC competition and with the help of books from Paul Mathews like " The Paper Jacket " and a few others that sparked interest in patched bullets again. So Like Steve Garby once said about smokeless powder being a passing fad maybe patching bullets is a recycling fad too that repeats itself every so often. One thing I can say for sure about patching high power bullets is that no other form of lubing or insulating a cast lead alloy bullet comes anywhere near the velocity potential of PP.


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 769 Location: Edmond Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #18 - Today at 9:07am	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote yesterday at 12:57pm: Do you suppose there is a reason why grease groove bullets totally replaced paper patched bullets? GG bullets didn't replace PP. They both were part of the evolution of bullets from muzzle stuffed round balls to modern monometal projectiles. If anything could described as replacing PP, perhaps it would be jacketed bullets. As speed increased so did leading issues. PP was an attempt to control that.

	Douglas, Ret.
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 17857 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #19 - Today at 2:57pm	Print Post
	The biggest reason you saw supply lists with paper included on them was simply because grease groove bullets were not that common during the buffalo hunting days. As grease groove bullets became the most common type loaded in factory ammo, then you saw less and less hunters paper patching bullets. Eventually it became nothing but grease groove or metal jacketed bullets, and none of the ammo makers offered paper patch ammo or bullets.

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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4379 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #20 - Today at 4:53pm	Print Post
	Then there is the increased barrel wear with paper patches?


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4379 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #21 - Today at 5:18pm	Print Post
	Just looked up some old factory boxes of bullets from UMC. For the Sharps 44-77 were some 405 grain patched in 1 to 19 alloy. For Sharps 45 550 grain patched were some in 1 to 14 alloy. Why does everyone now think the bullets should be soft?


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bullshop Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 315 Joined: Sep 14^th, 2017	Re: paper patch direction for 477-450 Martini Henry Reply #22 - Today at 8:02pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote Today at 2:57pm: The biggest reason you saw supply lists with paper included on them was simply because grease groove bullets were not that common during the buffalo hunting days. As grease groove bullets became the most common type loaded in factory ammo, then you saw less and less hunters paper patching bullets. Eventually it became nothing but grease groove or metal jacketed bullets, and none of the ammo makers offered paper patch ammo or bullets. That is correct but PP saw a revival at the beginning of BPC competition. PP dominated that competition for a long time then finally gave way again to the simplicity of greased bullets. Some high level competitors still use PP or did until BPC kind of fizzled out. There is no doubt that a smooth bullet of the same length and basic shape as a grooved bullet has a higher BC than the grooved bullet. Some competitors want to every advantage possible and a higher BC is am advantage. If you look at the ballistic charts in the Lyman cast bullet hand book and compare the drop figures between a flat nose bullet and a round nose bullet of the same caliber and weight you will see quite a difference in drop and wind figures. That is why you dont see any serious competitors using a flat nose bullet. The same comparison is there between a grooved bullet and a smooth bullet of the same caliber and weight. Another advantage with the smooth bullet being shorter for the same weight requires less rotational velocity for stability. That becomes important when your rifling twist rate is marginal for a certain bullet weight/length. For instance I have a Sharps 45-90 with a 1/20" twist that will not do well at long range with the Lyman 457132 Postell bullet at about 525 grain in a BHN-9 alloy . I have an adjustable for weight 45 caliber PP mold that if I set for the same weight and cast in the same alloy will do much better for long range because its reduced length for the same weight is fully stabilized by the 1/20" twist where as the longer but same weight bullet is marginally stabilized. That is an advantage I will use.


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