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ssdave
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Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Yesterday at 2:02am
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Started looking at one of my vernier sights, noticed the staff is marked very oddly.  It is numbered in 1/2 inch increments; 2 is 1 inch, 8 is 4 inches.  The intermediate 1/4" graduations are marked 30.  The individual graduations are 1/24" increments.  I haven't done the math on the vernier to see what it breaks it down to.

Anybody have familiarity with this system?  Care to explain why and how?

thanks!

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JKR
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #1 - yesterday at 5:38am
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Dave,
Is that one of Frank Zika’s sights?
I got one with a rifle I bought a couple years back. It was more math than I wanted to deal with. I sold it to someone on this forum. Maybe he’s figured it out and can help.
JKR
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #2 - yesterday at 5:52am
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Looks like quarter minute adjustments to me...
  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #3 - yesterday at 7:47am
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My experience  with Vernier sights, Mike Stevens & MVA you can't count on the gradations to relate exactly to MOA. Not just the gradations, rear to front sight distances can vary too. Another complication few rifle ranges are measured precisely.

I have two CPA's and 4 barrels all with the same sight distances and sight graduations. One graduation is a slight bit more than 1.2 MOA . Split  between two gradations the sights measure to 06 Moa . All this from calculation, proved on targets with settings used in matches recorded in a notebook. 

Sounds complicated but it's really not, once recorded you can dial in precise point of impact fast. Silhouette sports varying gun club ranges 4 banks of animals essential 

Boats
  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #4 - yesterday at 8:14am
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Think these charts came from "Hatchers Notebook" simplifies the job. Add a .22 Trajectory table too.

Boats



« Last Edit: yesterday at 9:09am by boats »  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #5 - yesterday at 12:34pm
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Traditional Vernier tang sight staffs were graduated in 1 inch increments, divided into 20 parts. The vertical slider was 1/20th inch divided into 6 parts. The illustration below (from my book Loading and Shooting Traditional American Schuetzen Rifles) shows how to increase elevation in one minute of angle (MOA) increments or 10 MOA. This assumes a barrel length of 30". Your results WILL no doubt vary but this is how to read a Vernier scale.
  

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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #6 - yesterday at 12:50pm
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Martinibelgium is right, once I do the math.  It appears to be directly marked in degrees, with 5 minute increments.  Then a vernier with 1 minute increments, with additional fine vernier marks at 1/4 minute.

I can read and use d/m/s verniers, I was a surveyor back in the day when you ran into an occasional instrument in use that wasn't electronic and I had to use them.   

Looks to be a very accurate and well made sight, but it would be very hard to wrap my thinking around degrees, minutes, instead of points.  I could probably do it by ignoring the 1/4 minute vernier, but I think the correct answer is to just use an MVA instead, graduated the way I expect.
  
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GT
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #7 - yesterday at 1:04pm
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Dave,
This staff is calibrated for a 28-29" sight radius and with that it does give you 1/4 MOA adjustments.  That is providing you accept that a minute is one inch at 100, two at 200, etc.  It does look like a Zika sight and comparing it to an MVA that has 6 graduations (0 plus 5 more) on the traveling block (each line move is .010"), this one has 21, (0 plus 20 more)  each line move is slightly less than .002", or almost 1/4 MOA - as .008" is a MOA.  confused?  As Boats shared, from Hatcher's graph it's about a 29" sight radius and there are rounding errors.
   
Most of my builds get set up so the sight radius is 34.378" or so a minute (1.047") works out to be .010" on my staff.  Lately, on another subject similar but different yet, I've been graduating my scope turrets and mount spacing so I get half MOA corrections.  It's anal and I can't really shoot that close beyond 100 in most conditions but the mindset is there.

Back to the irons, with the naked eye most folks can barely resolve a minute, a lot of our gongs out to 1200 get a 2 minute dot painted on them, there's a reason for that.  Can you clearly see a one inch dot at a 100yds? I rarely can anymore.  Now if you could stay juiced on adrenaline it'd be clearer and stay sharp, some activities create that, most target shooting not so much - competitve competition between a couple shooters maybe... Hunting... or battle...
GT
  

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"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #8 - yesterday at 2:21pm
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ssdave wrote yesterday at 12:50pm:
Martinibelgium is right, once I do the math.  It appears to be directly marked in degrees, with 5 minute increments.  Then a vernier with 1 minute increments, with additional fine vernier marks at 1/4 minute.

I can read and use d/m/s verniers, I was a surveyor back in the day when you ran into an occasional instrument in use that wasn't electronic and I had to use them.  

Looks to be a very accurate and well made sight, but it would be very hard to wrap my thinking around degrees, minutes, instead of points.  I could probably do it by ignoring the 1/4 minute vernier, but I think the correct answer is to just use an MVA instead, graduated the way I expect.


Actually, that was the original marking of tang sights - minutes and degrees, even adapted according to the sight radius, so you know the POI movement on target of a sight change.  With today's laser marking, a breeze to do - you just calculate the exact spacing, determine your zero (in my case the 100m zero) and have your sight  staff engraved accordingly.   

I have always worked with degrees and minutes, I believe it is much more relevant.  But then again, to each his own.
  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #9 - yesterday at 2:40pm
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My kind of vernier scale.  Smiley
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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ssdave
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #10 - yesterday at 3:17pm
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westerner wrote yesterday at 2:40pm:
My kind of vernier scale.  Smiley


Roughly 3 minute adjustment, with +- 1 minute accuracy isn't bad.  Who needs to read that pesky extra scale anyway?
  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #11 - yesterday at 3:41pm
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Not me. I'm like GT, can't see or shoot good enough to use a fine scale. Here's yet another scale on a Frank Zika sight.
  

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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #12 - yesterday at 8:47pm
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My tangs read like RSW's pictured. Difference is shorter barrels=sight radius make my graduations worth 1.2 MOA instead of 1 MOA. Not a problem as long as you know how yours reads. I read mine with a pocket magnifier. 

Measuring distances with vertical angle is old as Navigation. 1966 on a 1937 built Coast Guard ocean tug we had magnetic and gyro compasses, depth finder, WW 2 vintage radar  and LORAN that was useless near shore. Visual or radar bearings on two known objects, position could be fixed.  

Coastal near shore in and out of inlets rivers bays only aid to navigation generally a lighthouse. Could take a bearing but it was a single line no cross reference. Bouy's ? Good reference but can't trust them 100 %

Answer was a standmeter, about 20 inch long hand held instrument that measured the angle between top and bottom of a lighthouse or any other known height object. Chart gave the objects height, angle gave you the distance off from a supplied graph. Plotted distance on the observed magnetic bearing gave you the boats exact position Exactly like a rifle sight in reverse. Get used to it you could get a fix in minutes . 

Ability understand, or to talk, between shooters and spotters, bullets strike and adjustment needed in the same terms is an essential skill. If I had to do it in Mil's would be totally lost.

Boats
  
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #13 - yesterday at 10:33pm
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"If I had to do it in Mil's would be totally lost"

It's not that bad, just more numbers...  It is much better if both the shooter and spotter are talking the same language though.   



I get a chuckle out of folks that use nothing but mils but ask "how many minutes high was I, or I shot a 1/2 MOA group"  correct their answer in mils instead, causes pause.  If you know they use a scope graduated in mils, then they use a vernier tang sight - give them corrections in mils, it throws them off.
  

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"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Vernier sight, graduated in 1/24 inch?
Reply #14 - Today at 12:08am
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The whole compatibility thing is the main issue with me.  If I only had one rifle and sight, this one would work fine.  But, I've always worked in points, and because of sight radius consider them to be the same as a m.o.a., i.e. an inch per 100 yards.

Spotting that way for one rifle, and another way for a different one would be disastrous.   

I'm back to plan A, which was to get rid of all my sights that aren't identical, and put identical sights on everything.  Except my first 45-90 rolling block, it's going to keep the Axtel sharps style on it, instead of getting an MVA.
  
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