Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6 1/2 Ballard (Read 1275 times)
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
6 1/2 Ballard
Jul 24th, 2025 at 9:36pm
Print Post  
Our local community had not had a gun show in around 30 years...until last December.  So I decided to setup a table to support it, even though I hade to drive 6 blocks. Grin  

There was also a local dealer there with 5-6 tables, Friday he came over, sat down and started talking about a Ballard he owned but didn't know anything about it.  He asked if I could help him with it, which I agreed to do, but I figured I really wouldn't be much help!

He brought it in Saturday and I must say, I was expecting a beat up #5 or something like that, but got a real surprise.  It was the rifle shown in these pictures.  I believe it to be, or was anyway, a #6 1/2 Rigby, but, the real surprise was the Pope barrel.  It's stamped HM Pope, Hartford, Conn. on the top flat of the barrel. The dealer left it with me and we talked, off and on, all day.  I sent pictures to Tony Maddox and Tom Rowe to get their thought on what it was and relayed the information as I got their thoughts.  

He did want to sell it and by the end of the day we had agreed on a price and I now own it.

Since Pope usually didn't mark the chambering on his barrels, we didn't know what it was, but thought probably 28-30.  That was a wrong assumption, I did a chamber cast and it's chambered in 25-25 Stevens, which apparently Pope did use, but probably not very often since it's not seen much.

The serial numbers on the wood and buttplate match the frame, but the the breech blocks, and of course barrel, don't.

The pictures of the rifle are a little unusual because of the background.  This background was needed to be more neutral from what I normally use. Tom Rowe wanted pictures of it for a book he is working on about Pope Jersey City barreled guns.  While this is not a Jersey City gun, he is adding a section on guns that have shown up since his other books were published.  This gun/barrel is a new find so it's not listed in the earlier books.  Included are 2 pictures I sent, that Tom did his photo magic on.  You can see how he fixes them.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #1 - Jul 24th, 2025 at 10:06pm
Print Post  
The barrel has the Pope markings on it with his serial number.  The barrel is apparently a #3 Winchester, marked with a partial 25-20ss stamp at the breech end on the bottom.

GT has a thread that started at the end of last year and he asks what everyones year end projects are.  I showed one poor picture of this gun, mentioning a hole in the barrel that need fixing.

Jordan Ranum (rifleman here) contacted me and ask where the gun came from?  I told him a local dealer.  He thought he recognized it and sent me the serial number of a Ballard that  he watched sell in North Dakota, 2-3 years ago on a farm sale.  Ends up being the same gun!  He also saw it for sale in Tulsa a couple years ago.  Then it ends up in the single shot desert of NW Iowa.  Go figure!

More pictures of the barrel and more.
Bob


  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #2 - Jul 24th, 2025 at 10:08pm
Print Post  
Couple more.
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rifleman
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 310
Joined: Aug 4th, 2015
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 8:35am
Print Post  
That gun has had a hell of a year. It was only last October I saw this gun sell at a farm auction in Minnesota. No internet bidding, with alot of rifles, and alot of deals. It was the kind of auction you hope to find yourself at once in your life where everything is going cheap.

A month later I finally make it down to the Tulsa gunshow and after talking to Tony, I started walking around and about the first table in the building I see this rifle again. 

Next thing I know Bob is talking about his new Ballard and here it is again. It looks fantastic Bob, like I told you, I am glad you got it…
But I wish I had just bought it the first time I saw it.   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 17119
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 9:46am
Print Post  
I'm puzzled by the chambering? If it was originally a .25-20SS and Pope re-rifled it, I can't figure out how he could rifle it with Pope rifling in the same bore size? A .28 would be no issue, but .25 to .25 Pope doesn't make sense.

Beautiful Rigby Pope though!
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3779
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 9:52am
Print Post  
great pick up and a neat story that remined me of....
entering a big show in Reno while I was trying to find nice Colt revolvers at affordable prices for me, I spied a group of percussion guns on a table right away. among them was a decent 1851 Navy with checkered ivory grips. Having formed the habit of taking a general tour prior to spending my meager funds I went on. As I neared the far side of the large show I spotted another with the same description, and asked about it. The dealer, Ron Ogan, well-known at the time told me he hadn't thought of a price yet since he'd only bought it a half hour before. Dawned on me the damned thing was following me and I made an offer that he accepted, saying at least he didn't need to carry it until somebody purchased it. not as traveled as your great Ballard/Pope, but a fun memory for me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #6 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:12am
Print Post  
marlinguy wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 9:46am:
I'm puzzled by the chambering? If it was originally a .25-20SS and Pope re-rifled it, I can't figure out how he could rifle it with Pope rifling in the same bore size? A .28 would be no issue, but .25 to .25 Pope doesn't make sense.

Beautiful Rigby Pope though!


Vall, pretty much my question too.

I guess it all comes down to when Winchester marked the chambering on the barrel.  It appears that Pope was probably the one that cut the barrel back, cutting through the Winchester markings.  Speculation on what was done is part of the fun of collecting these guns.

I forgot to mention earlier that it also came with a 15 power Lyman Super-Targetspot.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 17119
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #7 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:25am
Print Post  
bobw wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:12am:
marlinguy wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 9:46am:
I'm puzzled by the chambering? If it was originally a .25-20SS and Pope re-rifled it, I can't figure out how he could rifle it with Pope rifling in the same bore size? A .28 would be no issue, but .25 to .25 Pope doesn't make sense.

Beautiful Rigby Pope though!


Vall, pretty much my question too.

I guess it all comes down to when Winchester marked the chambering on the barrel.  It appears that Pope was probably the one that cut the barrel back, cutting through the Winchester markings.  Speculation on what was done is part of the fun of collecting these guns.

I forgot to mention earlier that it also came with a 15 power Lyman Super-Targetspot.
Bob


I haven't heard or seen a lined barrel by Pope, but make me wonder if he did a smoothbore sleeve and then rifled that to get it back to a .25 caliber? Are there any signs of this possibly being done to it?
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #8 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:35am
Print Post  
marlinguy wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:25am:
bobw wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:12am:
marlinguy wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 9:46am:
I'm puzzled by the chambering? If it was originally a .25-20SS and Pope re-rifled it, I can't figure out how he could rifle it with Pope rifling in the same bore size? A .28 would be no issue, but .25 to .25 Pope doesn't make sense.

Beautiful Rigby Pope though!


Vall, pretty much my question too.

I guess it all comes down to when Winchester marked the chambering on the barrel.  It appears that Pope was probably the one that cut the barrel back, cutting through the Winchester markings.  Speculation on what was done is part of the fun of collecting these guns.

I forgot to mention earlier that it also came with a 15 power Lyman Super-Targetspot.
Bob


I haven't heard or seen a lined barrel by Pope, but make me wonder if he did a smoothbore sleeve and then rifled that to get it back to a .25 caliber? Are there any signs of this possibly being done to it?


Haven’t noticed anything but really haven’t looked for a liner.  I will look but I have a hard time believing Pope would lower himself to lining a barrel and have confidence in it shooting like he guaranteed.  The barrel number being 227 is fairly early too.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1876
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #9 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 10:54am
Print Post  
I pulled the gun out and no sign of a liner, at muzzle or breech.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 17119
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #10 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 12:16pm
Print Post  
I agree Bob. I doubt Pope would ever reline, or line a barrel to then rifle it. I know he used a good number of smaller bores to rebore and rifle for his work. This just puzzles me how it could be a Winchester .25-20SS and become a Pope .25-25 later with a fresh bore?
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
oneatatime
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4128
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: Oct 30th, 2011
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #11 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 12:30pm
Print Post  
Pope rifled a 22 Winchester barrel to 25-20 SS and later it was set back and rechambered to 25-25?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #12 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 12:35pm
Print Post  
Speculating--Read somewhere Pope purchased drilled, unrifled barrel blanks from Winchester.
Barrel was marked prior to rifling then pulled and sold to Pope.
Beautiful rifle and interesting story.
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 17119
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #13 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 2:19pm
Print Post  
Chuckster wrote on Jul 25th, 2025 at 12:35pm:
Speculating--Read somewhere Pope purchased drilled, unrifled barrel blanks from Winchester.
Barrel was marked prior to rifling then pulled and sold to Pope.
Beautiful rifle and interesting story.
Chuck


I knew Pope used unrifled Winchester barrels, but didn't know about the pre-stamped versions. That makes perfect sense to solve this mystery! Thanks for your input Chuck!
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
terry buffum
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 153
Location: Bend, Oregon
Joined: Feb 11th, 2007
Re: 6 1/2 Ballard
Reply #14 - Jul 25th, 2025 at 2:34pm
Print Post  
The Pope barrels I've seen on Winchester (and Farrow) unrifled blanks were marked "Rifled by H M Pope, Hartford, Conn".

Barrel 201 carries that marking; likely made just a  few months earlier than this rifle.

  

Life Member #205
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint