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MAH
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30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Jun 3rd, 2025 at 6:08pm
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Just finished a rebuild of a Low Wall Winchester. made in 1918. As the title states it was chambered in a 30-20. Trying to find different loads for this caliber using a 130 grain cast projectile. Which I can't find for a Low wall. Great if it were a T.C. Contender or a B.F. falling block pistol. My concern is not to over pressure the action. From every thing I could find 25,000 psi is running on the good side. 
Have plenty of slow powders for this round to chose from. Currently using H4227 at 8.8 grains. But accuracy is dismal. Targets shows it wants to group but flyers are so bad, knowing that the cartridge is begging for more powder. 
So if anyone can give me some advise I will more than listen.
Thanks,
Mech
  
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bpjack
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #1 - Jun 3rd, 2025 at 6:32pm
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Try some Accurate 4100 or Ramshot Enforcer.  It scales up better than 4227.

Jack
  

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cheatin_charlie
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #2 - Jun 3rd, 2025 at 6:48pm
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I have found Reloader 7 works fine.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #3 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 3:10am
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Do you have a chronograph? It can shorten load development, quite a bit and tell you what loads are are worth pursuing. 

Not many people have used a factory 32/20 as a match rifle so, you'll need to do most of your development, yourself. I built one for my wife but, it was a HW, with a Douglas 12 twist, .308 groove so, I don't think my data will be of help. My light bullet was a 160 gr using B'Dot at 5.7 gr. The velocity was 975, with good ES so, you could use that with your 130 gr bullet but, the ES might go up with the lighter bullet.

In my heavier bullets, WC820, #9, H110 and Enforcer worked well at 8 to 8.5 gr. I think 8.0 gr of any of those powders would be a good starting point. I think the best accuracy, will come at under the low 1500 fps area. Remington cases are the best to use. They'll last much longer.

You need to check your bedding on the butt stock and forearm. The butt stock, can't be loose, at all and the forearm shouldn't bare against the action. The bench you shoot off of needs to be very stable as does the front rest and rear bags.
  

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argie1891
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #4 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:33am
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I have a Ubiriti in 32/20 that shoots very well. i use the lighter bullets max around 140 gr. The only bullets the rifle will shoot are on the light side because of the twist rate they use. I hesitate to list loads because i have no idea of what the pressure is. one of my best loads has been the lyman 3118 over 5.8 gr. of unique. Truly this has produced many groups of under an inch. Now i cant do that every time but it really shoots well. i have no idea of the pressure for all i know it is too much for your rifle. I can say it is safe in mine as extraction is easy and cases are lasting just about forever. the other bullets i have used are from  an accurate #140 mould and a saeco of 140 gr. cant remember the number. i have also used a full case of 1680 and it has shot well. If you try anything please work up slowly that is what i have done and in the 50 + years of reloading i have never harmed a firearm. I have been at the range when 2 rifles and one shotgun came apart and i cant believe the stupid loads some use. 
Joe G. in Eastern Washington state
  

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MAH
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #5 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:53am
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To the people that have replied thank you. This rifle was planned from the beginning to shoot only a hundred yards. When it was put together I used a 1-13 twist S.S. barrel from Shilen. Velocity with the 130 grain round is on average 1150 fps. The velocity is the speed I wanted to be. My case web expansion is .0007, from full length resizing .350 to .3507. This an average using Star line cases. The last point is I am not sure if a .001 expansion is max pressure, or what the loading manual states at .353. Somewhere I had read that .001 case expansion should be considered max. Trying to find that again. 
Thanks for the reply's, the journey is the fun part. The reward is bring back to life a fine old rifle, back to glory.

MAH
  
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Oleblacksmith
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #6 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 7:58am
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I don't know if my experiences will be helpful. I have a fine old Hepburn, all original which is marked 32.20 but the bore is actually .308. I have been using a Saeco mold #254 which is a 115gr bullet sized both.308 and also.310. I never had very good luck getting the rifle to shoot with faster powders. I finally tried 10gr IMR 4198 which is a nice soft load producing velocities around 1078 and 2" groups. The challenge for me has been sizing the Starline 32-20 cases to uniformly hold the bullet. I made a neck sizer out of an M-1 sizing die but that was still too loose to hold the bullet. I finally cut down a 284 sizer to make a short neck sizer then belled it with Lyman .308M die. Until I got to where I had a uniform neck tension my groups and velocities were all over the place. Again I don't know if this will help.
  
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bpjack
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #7 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 9:43am
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My 30 Wesson likes 4198 as well in fixed loads.  I use it in a Ballard for offhand matches primarily.  It will shoot groups about 3” at 200 yds which is fine for my poor offhand skills. Heavier bullets shoot better breech seated with 300MP and 4100.
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #8 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 9:52am
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MAH:
I sent a PM, and notice that I had previously sent one that you didn’t look at.  Check your PM’s.

CHRIS
  
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frnkeore
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 12:19pm
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MAH wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:53am:
To the people that have replied thank you. This rifle was planned from the beginning to shoot only a hundred yards. When it was put together I used a 1-13 twist S.S. barrel from Shilen. Velocity with the 130 grain round is on average 1150 fps. The velocity is the speed I wanted to be. My case web expansion is .0007, from full length resizing .350 to .3507. This an average using Star line cases. The last point is I am not sure if a .001 expansion is max pressure, or what the loading manual states at .353. Somewhere I had read that .001 case expansion should be considered max. Trying to find that again. 
Thanks for the reply's, the journey is the fun part. The reward is bring back to life a fine old rifle, back to glory.

MAH 

So, with that barrel, it will handle bullets as long as 1.2 and 200 gr. A 22 twist will stabilize your 130 gr bullet. I have built several 30's in 12, 13 and 14 twist. The 14 twist was my first and it stabilizes the above bullets at 1400 fps.

Because of the velocity you are wanting, do you want to stay sub sonic? If your going to stick with fixed ammo, with a std 32/20 chamber, you have 2 choices. First use bore riding bullets that are bore size to .001 over, so you can still chamber them. You can make a 2 diameter sizing die to do that. Second, re-throat the chamber, with a .310 diameter freebore about .12 long with a ~3° - 1.5° lead angle. 1.5 total or, .75° lead per side, being the better.

In your load development, look for ES of under 20 fps, and a clean bore, to insure that you have good combustion of the powder. See if you can find a few Rem cases to try, also.

The best accuracy, will be had breech seating the bullet and you can do that, w/o altering the throat.
  

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MAH
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #10 - Jun 4th, 2025 at 9:20pm
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frnkeore,

Curious if you were shooting a 30-20 in a Low Wall at 1400 fps?
My rifle is a 30 caliber all the way. I am shooting a 310 dia. bullet.
Seems to seal the bore better, than .309. 

Have run up to 9 grains of H4227 powder. Now proceeding to H4198, then onto R-7. Looking at other powders also like LT-30 it is very close in speed to 4198 powders.
Serious looking into the Neco program in adding where pressure would fall into. I forget who mentioned a chronograph, have one, but it is down for the count. Its an old Chrony, many a round thru it in the day. 
Tomorrow is another day to play, follow the path for the one inch groups. Thanks all for the suggestions.

MAH
  
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frnkeore
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #11 - Jun 5th, 2025 at 3:09am
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For myself, I consider a chrono a go to tool for load development. It will weed out large ES, right away. I never found a load with a large ES to be as accurate as one under 20 fps. Some of my loads have chrono'ed as low as 5 ES. My 33 ELCO Max, has ES of 10 and SD of 3.

The LW is stronger than you think. I have a LW that shoots it most accurate BSed load at 1400 fps, with a 357 Max case and 208 gr bullet and have shot it at much higher velocity's with 208 gr, fixed GC bullets.

My first 32/20, I also built for my wife, it was on a 44 Stevens, with a hammer lug. One of the loads I shot in it, was 8.0 gr Enforcer, using both a NEI 190 gr bore rider and 184 gr tapered bullet BSed, 1255 and 1243 fps. The ES wasn't that good (33 & 48). The best load in the HW 32/20 was with #9  powder and Rem 7 1/2 primers.
  

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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #12 - Jun 5th, 2025 at 8:30pm
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I'm curious how you use a 357Max case? Are you forming them into a 32-20(30-20)? I have tried forming 357 Mag cases into 32-20 cases before Starline just recently made them available again. The base diameter is too large on the 357 cases to swage them down.frnkeore wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 3:09am:
For myself, I consider a chrono a go to tool for load development. It will weed out large ES, right away. I never found a load with a large ES to be as accurate as one under 20 fps. Some of my loads have chrono'ed as low as 5 ES. My 33 ELCO Max, has ES of 10 and SD of 3.

The LW is stronger than you think. I have a LW that shoots it most accurate BSed load at 1400 fps, with a 357 Max case and 208 gr bullet and have shot it at much higher velocity's with 208 gr, fixed GC bullets.

My first 32/20, I also built for my wife, it was on a 44 Stevens, with a hammer lug. One of the loads I shot in it, was 8.0 gr Enforcer, using both a NEI 190 gr bore rider and 184 gr tapered bullet BSed, 1255 and 1243 fps. The ES wasn't that good (33 & 48). The best load in the HW 32/20 was with #9  powder and Rem 7 1/2 primers.

  
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frnkeore
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #13 - Jun 6th, 2025 at 2:12am
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I use the 357 Max case, as is, on a rebored .357 barrel. I only brought it up, to show the LW isn't as weak as some think.

To the regular public, I call it a 38 XL, just to be safe.
  

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MAH
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Re: 30-20 Low Wall Winchester
Reply #14 - Jun 11th, 2025 at 9:54pm
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Out once again with more load testing. .2 grain increase between 9.0 and 10.0. At 9.0 grains of H4227 had a velocity of 1154 fps. 10.0 grains 1273. Each two tenths increase of powder produced roughly 25 fps increase of velocity, until 9.8 grains velocity jumped to 1294 fps. Then having IMR4198, and R-7 I tried a mid range load in both. Best accuracy came with 9.2 grains of H4227. A group of .835 second best was at 10.0 grains, with a group at 1.2 inches. Powders 4198 and R-7 strung the impacts vertically six inches just about in a straight line. Begging for a bit more powder. 
The testing continues for the magic group, this is the most testing I have done in a very long time. Look at the chase as the fun part. Once reached, the time will begin to see how far it can be stretched with accuracy.

MAH
  
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