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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Off hand support (Read 1885 times)
sportslube
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Off hand support
May 21st, 2025 at 9:59pm
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This coming June 13,14th,15th we will be having out 37th annual Eau Claire, Wi Schuetzen match. New this year, We will be offering an opportunity for our aging shooters who no longer shoot off hand because of either age or physical impairment. They may use an OFF HAND REST, We all know shooters who no longer shoot be cause they cannot hold the gun up any more.  As of now limitation will be as follows,  70 plus or a physical or health related issue,  rest must be round and only the barrel may rest on the support,  it is our hope that this will allow our older shooters to continue to take part in more matches for a longer time.  We hope every one will support our decision to keep everyone involved in our sport.  Questions or concerns
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #1 - May 21st, 2025 at 10:12pm
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Good for you! I'm in that boat now and rue the fact I can't shoot offhand worth doodly-squat anymore.
  
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JerryH
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2025 at 12:30am
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I think that is a wonderful idea. None of us are getting any younger.
  

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bnice
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2025 at 6:11am
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Sounds good, I hope it gets a good response
  
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J.Francis
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2025 at 6:38am
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I like it;it's kind of like letting older golfers use the forward gold tees so they can still hit greens in regulation. Our "birthrate" in this game isn't even at replacement levels so anything that keeps us shooting longer is a great idea.
  
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Gerald
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #5 - May 22nd, 2025 at 6:53am
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Perhaps two different scores then should be considered, those that use the support and those that do not.   
If the shooters using the support were to be more competitive than those that are not using the support it would keep the two groups separated for scoring results.
  
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Bruce P
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #6 - May 22nd, 2025 at 8:51am
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A couple of things come to mind here.

Standing and leaning your rifle on a support is not an offhand position. If you decide to follow through with this I think you need to establish a seperate classification and separate scoring rules.

That point made, and to add my humble opinion as I see it, this becomes a matter of range safety. If you have someone who is no longer steady on their feet and suffers from an occassional loss of balance, and they either stagger, stumble, or fall with a cocked rifle which happens to go off, now you have the potential for a major problem, especially if the shot leaves the range, or worse yet someone gets hurt or even killed as a result. 

I thoroughly understand trying to accomodate shooters, nor do I want to be a killjoy, but I think you need to think this over a little more. 


  
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art_ruggiero
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #7 - May 22nd, 2025 at 8:56am
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i think it is a great idea  we need to keep our older shooters .  the hell with worrying about score advantage.   old art
  
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sureshot
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #8 - May 22nd, 2025 at 12:58pm
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Doesn't the New Braunfels Club in Texas hold matches using offhand support sort of like ladder rungs?
Think I've seen pics of it somewhere.

Steve. 😀
  
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RSW
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #9 - May 22nd, 2025 at 1:59pm
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IMO - allowing a standing rest is a good idea as long as the scores are separate from offhand. Several years ago the ISSA entertained the idea of allowing a standing rest for those no longer able to shoot offhand but it never really caught on. Standing rest competitors were to shoot along with offhand shooters so there would be no squading issues.
I'm for just about anything that keeps us competing as long as possible  Smiley
  

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sureshot
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2025 at 2:27pm
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Like this...

  
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burntwater
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2025 at 4:03pm
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Call it range safety or whatever but an accident with injuries automatically becomes a matter of liability. Let's face it ' liability ' is almost a synonym for LAWYERS in the insurance or legal world. Nobody likes the insurance business yet unless your pockets are deep enough to self-underwrite you are a captive patron. The prospect of helping older or physically challenged competitors with an avenue for continued participation is a noble and worthwhile endeavor. I'm all for it but with both eyes open. 

So tweaking or adjusting the rules to accomplish this will realistically require some serious legal forethought. After some summary consideration I would suggest that careful wording of rule changes of this type should be written specifically to exclude any reference to a shooter's infirmity or abilities that the legal community could construe as a safety risk. Any range or sanctioned match that would permit, through their rules, such a possible risk and then subsequently sustain an injury or death as a result of such, will most certainly be susceptible to enough legal weight to possibly close them down. And remember sanctioned match rules apply not only to one but all who participate under such rules. I hate to be such a negative force on this subject but we shooters really don't need any more hurdles, self imposed or not. 

Rick
  
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sportslube
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #12 - May 22nd, 2025 at 4:07pm
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One of the reasons for tying this off hand rest/support,  a couple of years ago at our regional  one of the top shooters in this sport walked off the line and sold his off hand rifle and its equipment because he felt he was no longer competitive.  That is a major loss of knowledge for the younger shooters to learn from
  
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westerner
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #13 - May 22nd, 2025 at 4:12pm
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Gerald wrote on May 22nd, 2025 at 6:53am:
Perhaps two different scores then should be considered, those that use the support and those that do not.  
If the shooters using the support were to be more competitive than those that are not using the support it would keep the two groups separated for scoring results.

  

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frnkeore
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2025 at 5:20pm
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I'm sorta for it but, how will you police it?

Some people age better than others and even in the ages from 40 - 60 a persons health will factor into it. 

A thought would be to put a FR (front rest) next to the competitor name or number, keep them out of the top 3 or any OH prize positions. Depending on how many shoot, you could give a separate prize. But, that amounts to a separate class.

And, for me, now that I'm 80, I would want to add a shoulder post to lean against or a SFR class Smiley
  

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bpjack
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #15 - May 22nd, 2025 at 7:48pm
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Frank,
You could use the front rest but stand on one foot and hop up and down to give us 75 yr olds a fighting chance. 

Jack
  

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Bruce P
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #16 - May 22nd, 2025 at 7:54pm
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Guys,

I'll finish this with one last comment, essentially a series of questions, and then move on. 

First of all, how many of you have experience running matches today? Are you aware of the potential liabilities to a club if an accident occurs? Are you, as a match director personally responsible for an accident? Does your club have insurance for such accidents? Do you have such insurance? There are sound reasons why we shoot by published rules and adhere to them. This is serious legal stuff to consider.

It's great to be in a position to make accomodations to try and make everyone happy. But there can be consequencences too.

Just sayin...







  
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #17 - May 22nd, 2025 at 8:17pm
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This is a good start, shooters offering advice and the ramifications of rule changes . I was hesitant to comment on the legal side of this but also compelled to do so even as a follower with no competitive range time in this sport

Rick
  
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Joe_S
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #18 - May 23rd, 2025 at 2:29pm
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How about this:
1) draft specific rules as to what the rest should consist of, making it something that will not fall or slip, like the one shown in the photo above. THE SPONSORING ORGANIZATION SHOULD PROVIDE THEM TO KEEP EVERYTHING EQUAL AND SAFE.
2) separate awards, (will need a few extra medals but it avoids a lot of controversy)
3) No age requirement . 
Just my two cents fwiw. 
Joe S
  
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patriot
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #19 - May 27th, 2025 at 11:05pm
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The more competitors shooting standing the better, but keep the offhand and supported scores separate.  I'm 71 and practice offhand nearly every day with iron sights.  I sometimes zero the rifle shooting off a rest and it would be a significant unfair advantage.
  
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westerner
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #20 - May 28th, 2025 at 5:16pm
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When I get to old to shoot offhand I plan to shoot BR matches. Done in half the time or less which makes more time for chasing girls.
  

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Drydock
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #21 - May 28th, 2025 at 5:37pm
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Just have them sit down and use bench cross sticks.  Score them separate.
  
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westerner
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #22 - May 28th, 2025 at 11:58pm
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In Bavaria when shooters get to old they hang a rope in the shooting window. The old wobbly decrepit shooter lays his barrel on it to shoot. The rope hangs from the upper corners of the window. 

Don't think an old shooter will trade his expensive rifle rest for bench cross sticks.
  

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dcraven
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #23 - May 29th, 2025 at 2:09pm
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Definitely should be a separate class.
  
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #24 - May 29th, 2025 at 10:31pm
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In Germany today shooting with a rest is popular amongst elder shooters... the term they use for this class is
'Aufgelegt schießen', which roughly translates as 'laid up shooting'. A quick google search showed this club for example: 

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« Last Edit: May 29th, 2025 at 10:42pm by KaiserKong »  
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #25 - May 29th, 2025 at 10:56pm
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Doesn't matter if your sport is football, basketball, golf or shooting, there comes a time for all of us when we can no longer perform at the level we want. If you are going to go with any kind of rest it is no longer off hand shooting and must be in a separate class.  If someone can no longer shoot off hand there are still plenty of bench rest matches and I, like others, would be concerned about safety and liability.  This sounds like a noble effort to help an old friend keep shooting but it could be opening up a can of worms that will eventually come back to bite you.  Do worms have teeth?
  
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Re: Off hand support
Reply #26 - May 30th, 2025 at 5:13pm
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It's interesting, at the Quigley there's always some old timers who in the off hand can barely hold the rifle in the off hand.  You'd think they'd do poorly in the match but it turns out most score quite well.  They drop about half of the points in off hand but crush it shooting off the sticks.
  
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