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Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
May 3rd, 2025 at 12:54am
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What are the center fire caliber options for a small barrel shank model 1885 highwall??  Will handle a 30-30 or
38-55?
  
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JSB30
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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #1 - May 3rd, 2025 at 7:53am
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If the HW shank is as large as a Model 94 I would say it is good. I have a small shank in 40-70 SS.
  
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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #2 - May 3rd, 2025 at 9:05am
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Years ago John King put a Badger barrel on my small shank high wall in 45-90. He did make a comment about using BP only which was my plan in the first place.   

Jack
  

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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2025 at 4:37pm
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In this day and age I would never put a barrel on a gun that would not support without question any factory ammunition that a shooter migth find. Fool-hardy to open oneself up to litigation. Never know where that rifle might end up and in who's hands....
  

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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2025 at 5:49pm
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a old "rule of Thumb" is case heads 1/2 the thread diameter.
  

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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2025 at 9:58pm
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Using that rule of thumb, a 45-70 at .505 would be too big for a high wall large shank action. Mayme a rule of finger would be the better choice.
  

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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #6 - May 7th, 2025 at 7:52am
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Dunlap had a rule of thumb for  smokeless powder.  My memory seems think it was chamber walls should be at a least 2/3 of the diameter of the cartridge body thick, using modern steel...don't quote me I'm working from memory...look it up in his book.

  

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Re: Quetion on a small barrel shank model 1885
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2025 at 10:10pm
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Rather than guess, with a rule of thumb, just calculate it.
  
A fairly reasonable approach would be to calculate the hoop stress on the barrel, and compare that to the strength of the steel resisting the stress.  

To do so, let's use a low wall shank, and the .45-70 cartridge.
The low wall shank major diameter is .825", and it's 16 threads per inch at 60 degrees.  Tangent 30 degrees x 1/32" = .054" thread depth.  So, minor diameter = .825-(2*.054) = .717".
.45-70 is nominally .50" just ahead of the web.  So, thickness of steel remaining in barrel = (.717 - .50)/2 = .108"
The projected area of an inch of case = 1" x .50" = .50 square inches.  
At 36,000 psi, the force exerted on the two halves of a cylinder splitting down the middle = 18,000 pounds.   This is resisted by the wall of the barrel, and the area of the strip on each side at the splitting point = 1" x .108" = .108 square inches.  There are two sides with this area.
18,000 pounds divided by (.108 x 2 square inches) = 83,333 psi.

This is exceeding the yield strength of the barrel alone, at about 60,000 psi for 4140 steel.  To not blow up, the receiver would have to take part of the force, which is not a safely conservative situation to be in.

The maximum working case pressure can be backed out by the same calculations; for 60,000 psi steel, the maximum safe case pressure would be about 26000 psi for a .45-70.  Note that this has no factor of safety, but the receiver does give some factor of safety.  This would be about the max pressure that can be created by blackpowder, so it would probably be safe for that.

Doing the same calculations for a .38-55:  Case dia = .42".  
(.717 - .42)/2 = .297"
The projected area of an inch of case = 1" x .42" = .42 square inches.

At 36,000 psi, the force exerted on the two halves of a cylinder splitting down the middle = 15,120 pounds.   This is resisted by the wall of the barrel, and the area of the strip on each side at the splitting point = 1" x .297" = ..297 square inches.  There are two sides with this area.

15,120 pounds divided by (.297 x 2 square inches) = 25,455psi.  This has a factor of safety of more than 2 for 60,000 psi 4140 steel.  

I conclude from this that the small shank low wall is safe for .38-55 (.30-30) size brass, but not for .45-70 size brass.

Note that this isn't a rigorous engineering analysis, I simplified hoop stress. But, it's reasonably accurate, and is actually slightly conservative.
  
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