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yort
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Need some help
Apr 14th, 2025 at 10:55am
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Morning all, 

I have been a long time reader and haven't had any trouble finding the info I've been looking for. But I have hit a wall and would like some input.

Here is the set up. 
Sharps Conversion, done by Sharps.
45-70 1-22 twist

Very light BBL 28"
.830 muzzle 
.940 just forward of the action

Groove slugs at .466
Pitted but very shootable

Bullet mould
Custom cut .468 373gr
This a a bit of the limiting factor because of grove size.
White label Swiss BPCR lube used.

I have tried every powder make, granulation, and weight. 
I have tried every primer.
Light loads 
Heavy Loads 
Little compression 
Heavy compression
Always through a drop tube.
3 different brands of cases.
Annealed from the start
Crimp and no crimp

Even resorted to duplex. gasp....
RL7, SR4759

Accuracy isn't good, best I've gotten is 3" at 50 yards.
And about 8" at 100.

I'll be the first to admit my eyes are part of the problem.
Sights on the rifle are Fruend more lights.

Now that I have given you details, my problem:

Regardless of the load combo this rifle shoot incredibly dirty.
First round out will take 3-4 patches just to get under the slime.
Blow tube will keep the mess soft but no improvement in accuracy.

What am I missing????



  
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CW
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Re: Need some help
Reply #1 - Apr 14th, 2025 at 11:24am
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"White label Swiss BPCR lube used. "
I am not sure I know what this is. Is this two different things run together?
Aside from that, sounds like it should be doing the best it can do.

It is hard to know from across the computer divide. In person can show so much more..... 
  
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CW
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Re: Need some help
Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2025 at 11:32am
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Just a thought, How good is the crown and the rifling close to the crown? Sometimes these old rifles have been cleaned in a way that damages this area. 

Those old conversion Sharps are a piece of history.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Need some help
Reply #3 - Apr 14th, 2025 at 1:03pm
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Often troubles arise with some of the older stuff, owing the chambers and/or bores being of a larger size that you might think.   I have had best results with stuff like this with the LARGEST diameter bullets I could get in a fired case.   E.g., one of my old Swiss rifles has a groove diameter of .299”, yet gives great accuracy with a bullet of .328” diameter.

Be sure you have enough twist in the barrel to take care of the length of your bullet.

Make some measurements and see what you come up with -- best of luck with your endeavors.

CHRIS
  
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1Hawkeye
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Re: Need some help
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2025 at 2:08pm
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One of the fellows I shoot with has a sharps of similar nature. He has to make the cases for it out of. 45-90 brass because the chamber is longer than the 2.10" of a .45-70. 
I tried to shoot 70's in a 90 and the best group l got sounds like what you're describing. When he used cases of the correct length his rifle went from pattern to cloverleaf size groups.
  
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curdog
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Re: Need some help
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2025 at 7:18pm
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Have you tried paper wrapped bullets?
  
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yort
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Re: Need some help
Reply #6 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 10:29am
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CW wrote on Apr 14th, 2025 at 11:24am:
"White label Swiss BPCR lube used. "
I am not sure I know what this is. Is this two different things run together?
Aside from that, sounds like it should be doing the best it can do.

It is hard to know from across the computer divide. In person can show so much more..... 


White Label is the brand and Swiss BPCR is their mix. I've used this in many other rifles with success.
  
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yort
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Re: Need some help
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 10:31am
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curdog wrote on Apr 14th, 2025 at 7:18pm:
Have you tried paper wrapped bullets?


I have not done much of this, so somewhat new to the process. I'm headed this direction next. 
  
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yort
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Re: Need some help
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 10:33am
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rgchristensen wrote on Apr 14th, 2025 at 1:03pm:
Often troubles arise with some of the older stuff, owing the chambers and/or bores being of a larger size that you might think.   I have had best results with stuff like this with the LARGEST diameter bullets I could get in a fired case.   E.g., one of my old Swiss rifles has a groove diameter of .299”, yet gives great accuracy with a bullet of .328” diameter.

I agree with this, I'm not sure you can have too big a lead bullet.
The chamber will allow the .468 bullet but nothing more. So I'm as far as I can go in bullet diameter.


Be sure you have enough twist in the barrel to take care of the length of your bullet.

Make some measurements and see what you come up with -- best of luck with your endeavors.

CHRIS

  
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yort
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Re: Need some help
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 10:35am
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1Hawkeye wrote on Apr 14th, 2025 at 2:08pm:
One of the fellows I shoot with has a sharps of similar nature. He has to make the cases for it out of. 45-90 brass because the chamber is longer than the 2.10" of a .45-70. 
I tried to shoot 70's in a 90 and the best group l got sounds like what you're describing. When he used cases of the correct length his rifle went from pattern to cloverleaf size groups.


Good call, this is something I have not looked at. I'll make sure my cases aren't too short. I have ran into this with a 40-50 SS and it made all the difference. 
  
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blkpowderbuff
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Re: Need some help
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 11:11am
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Have you tried a Cerrosafe alloy casting of the chamber and bore? You could determine the exact case length and lands and grooves at the chamber. It's available on Amazon and Buffalo Arms.
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Need some help
Reply #11 - Apr 15th, 2025 at 12:24pm
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You mention trying crimped and not crimped.  Have you tried not sizing the brass at all and finger seating?  How does your 0.468 bullet fit the fired case?  I like to use the largest diameter bullet that I can just barely finger seat.  Is the 373 grain bullet long enough to engrave the rifling when chambered?  I have a 50/70 with a 1/26 twist that does not like short, light bullets but shoots lights out when I move up to 512 grain bullets.  Accurate Moulds can make any bullet diameter and length that you desire at a very reasonable cost.  I am not sure of the accuracy potential of an original Sharps so maybe what you see is what you get.  When I was trying to get my original Ballard Pacific in 40-85 to shoot I finally resorted to about an hour session with JB Bore Paste to get the 120 year old crud out of the bore but it wasn't until I shot quite a few PP bullets that the bore became mostly clean.  PP bullets are a pain with BP in that you don't get any lube but by cleaning between shots accuracy stays good.  The paper seems to help clean the grooves but that might just be a false impression.  I know that if I shoot more than 3 shoots without cleaning accuracy starts to go south big time.  That leads me to believe that your bore might need a better cleaning such as the JB Paste and maybe try SPG Lube as it is easy to get and does work quite well.  I thought that I was never going to get the Ballard to shoot great but I tried Goex 3f and that made all of the difference.  One other thought but since I know virtually nothing about the original Sharps is can you shoot it without the forearm attached shooting off of cross sticks supported just a few inches from the muzzle?  Though it seems like a fouling issue maybe the forearm is swollen or something.  I know that a forearm on a Rolling Block that touches the frame will cause accuracy to suffer considerably!  Have fun experimenting with this old rifle.  The thrill of victory will be sweet if you ever find the right combination and think about all of the time you will be shooting in the process.  And if all else fails, 8" at 100 yards is almost minute of buffalo.   Tongue  Tom
  
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