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.22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? (Read 4005 times)

GT Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2143 Location: Northeast Wyoming Joined: Jun 28^th, 2015	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #30 - Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 6:44pm	Print Post
	Wayne, That figure is calculated at target, not muzzle. Yes, the energy to tip them at 200 matters. I've wrung a ram more than once, saw a chicken last weekend... G

	"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" T. A. Edison "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4138 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #31 - Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 6:46pm	Print Post
	I have a .22 LR CPA rifle and a .22 LR BSA Martini International MK II with a match chamber and short leade on a 16:1 twist barrel. The CPA Silohuette stocked rifle is much better for practicing offhand however the BSA has won many 100 yard (target attached) and 50 BR bench matches using Tenex. The CPA has a 17.2:1 twist and a long leade which allows cheaper ammo to shoot more effectively. I also have a .40-60 Maynard barrel for the CPA for BPCR Silhouette matches. The prone style stock of the BSA does not work well for offhand shooting.
	« Last Edit: Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 7:00pm by Schuetzendave »

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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1996 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #32 - Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 7:57pm	Print Post
	GT wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 6:44pm: Wayne, That figure is calculated at target, not muzzle. Yes, the energy to tip them at 200 matters. I've wrung a ram more than once, saw a chicken last weekend... G Since the standard formula MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM only applies at the muzzle, any down-range formula would need a decay factor which is very small. According to a test done several years ago at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds, a bullets spin decay rate is approximately 2% per 100 yds. So, a bullet leaving a 16-twist bore at 1100fps (49,500rpm) would have a spin rate of slightly more than 45,540rpm at 400yds. BTW, I've never found a published formula for calculating the down-range spin rate based on measurable muzzle velocity & bore twist. If you have a one, I'd sure be interested. Wayne


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1714 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #33 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:35am	Print Post
	Where does that idea come from that a 14" twist must be appreciably slower than a 16" twist? Losses will be negligible IMO, and a barrel longer than optimum will probably have more effect than the twist itself. One could actually make a case of MV being higher because of the higher initial resistance and more pressure being developed. Just found following article, yes it is not about the .22, but looks into the subject: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) For the long range .22 game, some shooters are even using 9" twist barrels...


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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1996 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #34 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 9:54am	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:35am: Where does that idea come from that a 14" twist must be appreciably slower than a 16" twist? Losses will be negligible IMO, and a barrel longer than optimum will probably have more effect than the twist itself. One could actually make a case of MV being higher because of the higher initial resistance and more pressure being developed. Just found following article, yes it is not about the .22, but looks into the subject: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) For the long range .22 game, some shooters are even using 9" twist barrels... So as not to confuse the readers here, that article is not about .22LR, but high velocity .223 & similar .22 caliber jacketed bullets such as those used in AR 15's & similar rifles. Wayne


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Oakdale Junior Member Offline Posts: 73 Location: Maplewood, MN Joined: Jun 7^th, 2017	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #35 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 10:42am	Print Post
	Wayne, Thanks for the explanation. Makes total sense knowing the details. Reminds me of the handgun silhouette game I shot often, called half size or half scale. Targets are IHMSA Field Pistol or half the size that are used in NRA BPCR at the same distances as the IHMSA Big Bore of 50, 100, 150 and 200-meters. The IHMSA and NRA targets are the same. But no offhand requirement (fortunately!) IHMSA is a spin-off of the NRA High Power Rifle game. Those distances are the same as BPCR silhouette. The NRA rifle game requires 100% offhand. Elgin Gates and crew started IHMSA using the NRA targets, at shorter distances and different shooting positions and several gun categories (that’s a whole different bucket of worms!). Tom


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.22Hepburn Oldtimer Offline Posts: 835 Location: Pennsylvania Joined: Feb 18^th, 2008	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #36 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 10:45am	Print Post
	Oakdale, to clarify, the .22 silhouette game is derived from NRA Black Powder Silhouette. Think of the .22 game as a short range version, using .22LR caliber rifles. Essentially, the .22 version uses the big bore Black Powder rules. We had to call the game something, so “.22BPCR” was chosen. FYI, I was one of the first .22BPCRA Directors. You can more info, including rules on the 22BPCRA site.


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Oakdale Junior Member Offline Posts: 73 Location: Maplewood, MN Joined: Jun 7^th, 2017	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #37 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 5:28pm	Print Post
	Maybe someday I’ll acquire my first .22 rimfire rifle. Right now my first CPA centerfire is due to arrive next week….getting anxious!


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2932 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #38 - Feb 25^th, 2025 at 7:17am	Print Post
	rnnhntr wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 5:56pm: Thank you for the input and keep it coming. I limited my initial information because I did not want to prejudice the conversation any more than necessary. I started out with a Cresnoe liner in my 1874 Sharps and am currently shooting BPCR matches with a Stevens 44 with a 24-inch barrel that I relined with a 1:16 twist TJ liner. Those rifles let me know that I like the game and have gotten me to where I can fairly regularly shoot high AA class scores. I usually shoot 2 to 4 on chickens and 9 or 10 on pigs, but fall off on turkeys and rams. I know that a new rifle does not make up for a lack of marksmanship, but it doesn't hurt. I mostly shoot scope, but also use the rifle in our local cowboy silhouette matches where I usually shoot in the high 20s. I do not find the shorter barrel to be a significant handicap with the irons. Most of the shooters at the matches I have attended here in Colorado or in Wyoming shoot CPA rifles, but the 1885 and clones are also popular, and both seem to be equally capable of winning matches depending on the shooter. I would like to have a low wall and a CPA 44-1/2, but can only afford one or the other. I have had good results using Lilja and Shilen barrels in centerfire rifles and will probably use one of the other on whatever, and probably with a 14-twist if I can do so. Since I am capable of doing so, I had originally considered buying an acton and building whatever myself, but I already have too many projects. Both CPA & CSA can build you a wonderful rifle and both sell triggers that can be made to be truly excellent. The advantage for the CPA is that it is a DST, if something you prefer. The advantage to the CSA low-wall is that it is self-cocking when cycled. One thing you have not mentioned is ammo. If your scores are dropping off beyond the pigs it may well be the ammo your are using. See what ammo the winners are shooting. It will generally be the high-priced spread (Tenex, Midas+, etc.). You get what you pay for......... One last thought. Go with a stainless barrel. It is much easier to maintain and retains it accuracy much long than carbon-steel.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 588 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #39 - Feb 25^th, 2025 at 9:15am	Print Post
	Glenn brings up an excellent point on ammo, just because it costs a bunch of money per round, and all the cool kids use it, doesn't mean your rifle is going to like it. My wife's CSA lowall is a classic example of that, put anything Lapua or SK in that thing and you'll be better off shooting a 410 loaded with #2 bb shot. It likes Norma , and Eley. But we did find that with the Norma tac it will shoot bug hole groups out to the pig line, but beyond that it got dicey. It wasn't until resetting the rams at our rage here at home, some of the few that went over had bullet profile's in the paint. Our miroku built lowall is capable of master scores with SK rifle match, and my original Stevens was capable of breaking the cool kids hearts shooting Aquila rifle match, but unfortunately that ammunition has dried up. Test different ammo at the 200 meter line on a windy day. Triggers I really prefer a 2-3 lb crisp single trigger. Lastly if the ammo you're using in your current rifle tests well on paper at 200 meters, then you might take a hard look at your spotter at the matches.


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2932 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #40 - Feb 25^th, 2025 at 9:58am	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:35am: For the long range .22 game, some shooters are even using 9" twist barrels... When you state ".22 game", are you speaking of 22RF? And, what is "long range" distance if you are? If you are talking about .22CF, I shoot my .223R with 80gr VLDs to 1000yd and they are still supersonic (don't go thru the trans-sonic region). And, I'm shooting a 1-8" twist, which is slow for many, if not most .223R shooters. I have a 1-7" barrel on the shelf when this one burns out so can shoot 90gr bullets. Some folks are shooting 1-6.5", as well. 1-9" tops out with 'some' 75gr bullets, but most don't go above 69gr in that slow a twist in my experience (been shooting competitively with a .223R for all of this century). Obviously, YMMV.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1714 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #41 - Feb 25^th, 2025 at 1:22pm	Print Post
	SSShooter wrote on Feb 25^th, 2025 at 9:58am: MartiniBelgian wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:35am: For the long range .22 game, some shooters are even using 9" twist barrels... When you state ".22 game", are you speaking of 22RF? And, what is "long range" distance if you are? If you are talking about .22CF, I shoot my .223R with 80gr VLDs to 1000yd and they are still supersonic (don't go thru the trans-sonic region). And, I'm shooting a 1-8" twist, which is slow for many, if not most .223R shooters. I have a 1-7" barrel on the shelf when this one burns out so can shoot 90gr bullets. Some folks are shooting 1-6.5", as well. 1-9" tops out with 'some' 75gr bullets, but most don't go above 69gr in that slow a twist in my experience (been shooting competitively with a .223R for all of this century). Obviously, YMMV. No, I'm talking .22LR, and distances out to 4-500 yds. I recently saw 2 shooters with their rifles. Curious, I asked what they were shooting. The answer was RIMX action, Lothar Walther barrel (more like fencepost) with integrated tuner, with a high-tec scope with electronic cant indicator. And no, I didn't take a picture. Match ammo they used was Lapua (long range, super long range, center x), but that day they were training short range (100-200) with 'cheap' SK long range.


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rnnhntr Participating Member Offline Posts: 38 Joined: May 18^th, 2014	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #42 - Feb 25^th, 2025 at 11:24pm	Print Post
	Keep it coming, guys. Great information and thank you.


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7626 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #43 - Mar 3^rd, 2025 at 9:30pm	Print Post
	Might be a good idea to read the 22BPCRA rules before choosing a barrel. We don’t shoot under their rules my club so no personal experience. They say original barrels allowing liners or replacement barrel that duplicates original. Does duplicate mean twist too ? Perhaps competitors shooting the game can clarify. Boats


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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 588 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: .22 BPCR Rifle: CPA 44-1/2 vs. CSA Low Wall? Reply #44 - Mar 4^th, 2025 at 9:19am	Print Post
	No it doesn't mean twist rate.


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