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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Help me ID this rifle please. Update (Read 1120 times)
WalnutRed
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Help me ID this rifle please. Update
Feb 10th, 2025 at 9:23am
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Rifle is not in hand yet so I cannot say if it's center fire or rim fire. Bore looks to be about 35 caliber but I've not miced it yet. The seller thought it is a M1867 Krnka, which it obviously is not. Almost looks like a Whitney Phoenix variation. No obvious markings. What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2025 at 6:17am by WalnutRed »  
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830singleshot
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #1 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 10:27am
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My 1st thought was a Whitney Phoenix prototype.  I started a Google search and found your rifle with questions being asked about what it is on a Reddit thread from 2 years ago.  I also found a Brass Whitney Phoenix that was sold by Collectors Firearms in Houston and another sold at a 2018 Burley auction here in New Braunfels.
My guess is a toolroom prototype proof of concept, the production variant has the external parts that are attached to the action incorporated into the casting/forging to simplify manufacturing.  Just my guess
  

J. Scott McCash&&New Braunfels, TX&&830-237-2376&&jsmccash@yahoo.com
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WalnutRed
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #2 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 12:25pm
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I also wondered about a prototype because brass/bronze would be easier to cast and form. However if it was just a prototype why go to the trouble of checkering, target sights and tapered octagon barrel? Someone took some time in building this rifle.
  
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Smoke
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #3 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 1:55pm
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and that trigger guard.  Not something most folks would bother to work up for a prototype.

Interesting gun tho, kind of like a Flobert.

Could it have started life as a percussion gun that someone converted to cartridge?

That could explaine all the work up to the breech face.
  

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amatuers built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.
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WalnutRed
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #4 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 2:27pm
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To me the trigger guard looks like an off the shelf item available at any gunmakers supply house. The sights, trigger guard and buttplate may be the only off the shelf items on this rifle. This style action was used to convert percussion rifles, but I see nothing that makes me think this particular rifle was ever percussion. I think it was always cartridge.  Having only pictures of the rifle to go by right now I'm leaning towards something like 56/46 Spencer.
  
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830singleshot
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #5 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 2:45pm
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WalnutRed wrote on Feb 10th, 2025 at 12:25pm:
I also wondered about a prototype because brass/bronze would be easier to cast and form. However if it was just a prototype why go to the trouble of checkering, target sights and tapered octagon barrel? Someone took some time in building this rifle.


If you have designed a product that you are trying to get your boss to manufacturer, your pet project, and you work for a company that has very talented workers skilled in all aspects of production, you want to hand your boss a finished product to get your point across.  Not a rough, unfinished rifle.
At a manufacturing plant like I just described, it would take less than 2 weeks to turn that action into this finished product.  Maybe as little as a week.
  

J. Scott McCash&&New Braunfels, TX&&830-237-2376&&jsmccash@yahoo.com
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #6 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 2:47pm
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I think maybe pre production might be more fancy, or refined if it was made with the idea of showing it off to investors or potential customers. I doubt you'd want to make something crude or simple if you're trying to sell the design.
  

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oneatatime
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #7 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 7:03pm
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I'd go along with a percussion conversion of an original semi cartridge with the small hole where in the future a primer would be like some of the very early Civil War (whoops, the War of Northern Aggression) carbines. The excessive length of the protruding firing pin could be where the nipple was that used a musket cap that needed room to slip it on.
  
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GunBum
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #8 - Feb 10th, 2025 at 9:57pm
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Looks like a Krnka, Tabautiere, and Phoenix had an immoral night together.  Grin

Doesn’t have the correct look of a muzzleloader to breech loader conversion like a Krnka or Tabautiere.  Looks more like a purpose built, but weak, breechloader.

Very much looks similar to a Warner Carbine, but definitely not the same.  They were made by James Warner of Springfield Massachusetts.
  
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WalnutRed
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please.
Reply #9 - Feb 21st, 2025 at 8:05am
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Thanks for the suggestions. I still don't know for sure what this rifle really is. However the kind folks at the Cody Firearm's Museum found it interesting enough that they are assisting with research.
  
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WalnutRed
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Re: Help me ID this rifle please. Update
Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2025 at 6:25am
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The Cody Firearms Museum had no definite idea on the maker of this rifle.  Other than to say it was made by a skilled gunsmith/mechanic (using the 19th century definition of mechanic) probably in the 1870s. 

A chamber cast and slugging the bore indicates this rifle is in 38 Ballard XL Centerfire. As you know with a little finagling 38 XL can be made using 357 brass. I test fired it yesterday and once the weather breaks will load up enough ammo for a range day.
  
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