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boho
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Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Dec 22nd, 2024 at 1:21pm
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When I measure the runout on the necks of my fire formed brass I am seeing .002” to .004” runout. When I only neck size them the runout remains. I am surprised the neck sizing doesn’t correct it. I’m using the Sinclair gauge made to measure this. When I measure mid way on the case (38-55) the needle is motionless. When I full length resize and measure at the neck the runout is gone.
The neck sizer was a special made die by Larry Smith, there is an inch long bushing that has a tapered ID made to fit my fired cases. It locks onto the case and the OD is a slip fit into the die. The die comes apart at the top where a special neck size bushing is held. It’s very cool and well made but it’s not correcting the runout.
  
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rifleman
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #1 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 1:44pm
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Is the bushing held tight or is it allowed a small bit of space to float?
  
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boho
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #2 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 4:08pm
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It’s such a nice fit that there’s a groove up the side and a small vent hole on top to expel air.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #3 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 4:29pm
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I wouldn't full length size as it might correct some things, but create other issues. If your concern is consistency then file a small notch at the same place on every case and chamber them at 12 o'clock every time. Then only neck size and if the chamber is slightly off it will match the case indexed the same way each time. 
If you don't want to file a notch in every rim, just pick a point on the rim rollstamp and index off that each firing.
  

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boho
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #4 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 4:57pm
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What other issues?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #5 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 5:55pm
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boho wrote on Dec 22nd, 2024 at 4:57pm:
What other issues?


Issues like case life. By full length resizing every firing you're going to wear out cases faster. Each firing it forms to the chamber, and then you size it back. By only neck sizing your cases will likely never wear out unless you're a very avid shooter of just one gun.
I have only full length sized new cases, or new to me cases. After that never more than neck size. I've lost so few cases I can't even recall when I last had a case to toss out?
  

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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #6 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 7:38pm
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I agree with marlinguy.  If you're concerned about consistency, put an index mark on the rim & chamber them the same way each time.  Also, to extend case life, anneal the necks after every few firings.  Some, including myself, anneal after every firing.

Wayne
  

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boho
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #7 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 8:56pm
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Why do the fired cases have .002-.004” runout at the neck Is that normal ?would they need more than 1 firing to run true?
  
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BudHyett
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #8 - Dec 22nd, 2024 at 11:59pm
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The cases can become banana-shaped by being inserted into a tight chamber in a quick motion. This could explain the repeating nature of the problem. As impossible as this seems, pushing the case too hard on loading will bend the case. 

Firing the case does not straighten the case walls. Resizing dies are not tight dimensioned enough to remove the bend. If the case develops this condition, it cannot be easily ironed out. The case needs to be laid in the feeding trough and pushed directly into the chamber.

This is easy to twest in a BSA Martini International if you do not lay the cartridge in the feeding slot before pushing forward into the chamber. Hurrying through a match, I was pushing the bullet and closing the action at the same time. I noticed the rifling marks were not even on the case when extracting a misfire. Examining the cartridge closely the case was also slightly bent. 

The next practice trip at the range I was able to duplicate this condition. Testing the bent cases for accuracy, they grouped outside the usual grouping with flyers.
  

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texasmac
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #9 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:34am
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Boho,

Assuming your .38-55 chamber neck is cylindrical & the main body is tapered, the runout may be a result of non-concentricity in the main body resulting in fired case runout which a neck sizing die will not correct. I understand there is no runout when measuring the middle of the case, but the chamber can still be causing the runout.  If my guess is correct, then full length resizing will remove the runout.  If it were my rifle I'd make a good chamber cast & measure the runout of the cast neck & below the neck.

If you find out the runout is caused by the main chamber body but the neck is cylindrical & uniform, I would not be concerned about it.  If the chamber cast is uniform & concentric then any case runout is most likely due to variations is the case brass thickness & hardness.

Wayne
« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2024 at 12:59am by texasmac »  

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boho
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #10 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 6:54am
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That all makes perfect sense. But let me ask you this, if I only plan on shooting this rifle once in a blue moon just to get it out of the safe wouldn’t I be better off just full length resizing? I’m not going to be shooting it enough to worry about over working the brass. Do I loose accuracy by resizing?
All these issues is why I normally only breech seat and use 1 case with a dedicated CPA Bench gun. The High wall is a sporter that I started out with and haven’t shot in years. I just wanted something to do and already there are problems.
  
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #11 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 7:55am
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Variation in runout at the neck can also be a function of wall thickness (depending on how the fixture holds the round being measured).   

Outside neck-turning (holding the brass on a mandrel) will make the wall thickness uniform.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #12 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 10:04am
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You may want to do a chamber cast and take the same readings off that to see what you get.
If you're only going to take the gun out once a year to shoot is the accuracy so poor that you really need to worry about all this?
  

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boho
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #13 - Dec 23rd, 2024 at 8:17pm
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My plan was to get some rounds made up for this rifle get it sighted in and come up with an accurate load and make some notes. I cast 100 bullets a 310 grain PJ creedmoor. I full length sized  the cases and trimmed them all to the same length. I loaded 50 with 17 grains of 4227 and used a large rifle primer.  I used a set of Lee dies. It has an expander that flares it a little and a seater die that nicely seats the bullet and even seems to crimp it some. I took the rifle to my gun club we have 2 side by side 100 yard “tubes” indoors. I had mounted a Flecker 8X scope. I also had a brand new laser bore sight, a $20 Black Friday Amazon special. It looked great came with a lot of neat stuff and built really well. Even came with a screw drive and spare battery. Well it couldn’t be seen at the end of the tunnel there are spot lights that shine on the targets. But I could see it along the dark floor and walls so I tried to line up the crosshairs and the dot as best I could but the elevation ran out of travel. I had blocks on that were for out to 500 meters. So it was shooting about 7” low. My set up was not good and the group was 3-4”. I shot only 25 rounds and left. I changed the rear block to a shorter one and went back the next week. This time my laser failed me and I was on my own. You wouldn’t think a seasoned shooter could get lost in there but I went through my remaining 25 rounds and all I know is it’s shooting 5” high. Windage was fine. I should be happy using the Lee dies but of course I want to compare. I got out the fancy die and I see all this run out. I completely forgot to anneal them could that be the problem? I also tumbled them in ceramic media?

  
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marlinguy
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Re: Should cases be resized for best accuracy
Reply #14 - Dec 24th, 2024 at 12:07am
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If you lowered the rear block it would be moving the wrong direction for elevation needed. All that will do is cause adjustment to run out even sooner. You would need a taller rear mount to get the elevation to zero.
But if front and rear bases were the same height you shouldn't run out of elevation at 100 yds. with any scope. I have a Souther 8x scope on my Ballard in .32-40 and I don't run out of elevation adjustment even out at 400 yds. Something sounds amiss if you ran out at just 100 yds.?
  

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