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Jackpine
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Bench rest; What am I missing?
Sep 3rd, 2024 at 10:48am
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Howdy,

Long time shooter, but relatively new to formal benchrest; some Schutzen and some ARA rimfire.  Hopeing some of you experienced shooters can give me some sage advice.

My problem is getting consistency when changing from target to target. Sometimes when I move to the next target after shooting either a single shot or a group, the next shot will be well off the point of impact of the previous shots or group.  While I am sure that occasionally the issue is the ammo throwing a wild shot, but have faith in the ammo, based on shooting multiple groups, that I don't think that it is the ammo.

I believe the cause is something I am doing or not doing, so that the recoil is consistent after moving the rest.  Sometimes, when shooting a group, the group will be the same as the previous, but will have moved a quarter to half a MOA.  Sometimes, when shooting one shot at each bull (ARA) the shot will be out of normal range and then the next shot will be back where expected.   

I find this happens when wind should not be an issue and am trying to be consistent in all the aspects from shot to shot, and sometimes I can call the error, but most of the times I am mistified.  I have what I think are a couple of pretty decent rests, and the groupls that I am able to shoot with them leads me to believe that the rests themselves are quite stable.

Would appreciate inut and suggestions.

Thanks,

Jackpine
  
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watchthewind
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #1 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 11:35am
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Jackpine please provide more info.....
Does the rest have a windage top, what rest are you using, your rear bag, front bag, trigger pull weight, how is stock shaped/configured, free recoil, wind flags...?

Scott
« Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2024 at 12:08pm by watchthewind »  

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JackHughs
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #2 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 12:39pm
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There are other internet forums dedicated to ARA and other 50 yard rimfire disciplines where "expert" information is readily available.

I will say this from long years of experience, ARA is a money pit.  You need an excellent rifle, excellent benchrest equipment, excellent technique, and excellent ammo.  Of these, excellent ammo is the most difficult to acquire. Very few lots of the most expensive rimfire ammo are actually good enough for ARA competition. And without excellent ammo, the other components can never function at full potential.

JackHughs

   
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #3 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 12:45pm
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I sold several boxes of Ely Tenex to a local ARA shooter simply because it was manufactured on machine #3 at Ely.  He swears that hos rifle will only shoot well with ammo from that machine.

Jack
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #4 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 1:56pm
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watchthewind wrote on Sep 3rd, 2024 at 11:35am:
Jackpine please provide more info.....
Does the rest have a windage top, what rest are you using, your rear bag, front bag, trigger pull weight, how is stock shaped/configured, free recoil, wind flags...?

Scott


Yeah, what he said......

The more I shoot, the more I am convinced in consistent return to battery after a shot.    Getting a good group , moving to a new target only to shoot "flyer" really  can ruin your day.   All the shooters at Etna Green  work the gun in the rest and bags after moving to a new target. Everyone seems to have their own routine, but getting the  sand in the rear bag "lined up" with the new target so the gun recoils to the new position seems to be  good practice.  Look at the Fall match scores when they are posted, there was some great shooting.  Not by me however, I spent the four days collecting 23's. I'll dig around and see if I can find photos of some of the set ups. 


  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #5 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 2:24pm
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Bench rest is a specialty, one I never mastered. But rifle shooting, most other forms of shooting too, consistency is key. No matter what the equipment it has to be handled consistently set up and recoil .

That’s why some, me included, could shoot smaller groups prone with a coat glove and sling than bench rest. Certainly the rested position is more stable, I  had thousands of shots prone very few rested. That’s the difference.

My advise is leave your equipment alone it’s probably good enough, and practice consistency moving from bulls eye to bulls eye. Short strings 3 or so, but left right, left right, over and over until you understand what’s different target to target . No doubt it’s way the rifle is managed on bags   

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #6 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 7:26pm
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NEVER MOVE YOUR FRONT REST OR REAR BAG AFTER YOU HAVE SIGHTED IN.

Doing so means the angle of your butt stock changes and the rifle will recoil differently - thus changing your POA.

To ensure your rifle recoils the same as when you shot your sighter target or your first score target - only move the rifle left or right using the windage adjustment on your front rest.

I have a perch belly rear stock so moving the rifle forwards or backwards does not change the recoil angle to adjust for elevation.

People with a flat base stock adjust the rear screw on their front rest up or down to adjust for elevation.

However changing the angle of the rear bag or moving the front rest will change the recoil path for your rifle and will not stabilize until after a few shots.

To ensure the recoil path is set before I shoot my sighter target I ride the rifle back and forth in the bags to ensure the recoil path has been aligned before I shoot.

After ensuring the path is aligned/stabilized from shooting my sighter shots I NEVER move the rear bag or front rest.

I adjust the windage using the windage screw to move me left or right,  and slide the rifle forward or backwards to adjust my elevation.

This benchrest technique seems to have worked since I was the International Schuetzen Benchrest Champion in 2008 and 2013.
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #7 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 8:56pm
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Scott, in answer to your questions;

I was originally using a Bald Eagle rest, with windage top and the "remote" flex adjustment removed and replaced with a direct knob screw directly into the side of the top.  I have upgraded to a much heavier custom made rest which I bought from a shooter who had gotten out of the game due to age and health.  It is what I would call a T configuration with bar which is rides over the leg of the T and has very fine adjustment for both windage and elevation.  I shoot in the Factory ARA category so it is a two piece rest, front and rear not connected.

For bags I started using Protector both front and rear.  In hoping to be more consistent I built I front rest where the stock rides on Delrin rods and is kept centered by delrin rods, one side being lightly spring loaded.  For rear I have built a rest where the stock rests between two Delvin posts.   

I started with a CZ 457 with AT-one stock and trigger pull of about 12 ounces. When rules changed and allowed Bergara b-14R (steel barrel) and about 4 ounce trigger.   
I shoot mostly free recoil, trying with thumb lightly resting on top of pistol grip and "pinch" with trigger/pointer on trigger and thumb behind trigger guard, with no face/shoulder contact. I was just starting to try a light grip of stock and light shoulder on butt when I tore up my shoulder and had to put shooting on hold.  I do use wind flags.

Thanks,

Jackpine
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #8 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 9:00pm
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JackHughs,

I agree that ARA can be a money pit, which is why I opted to go with Factory, still a pit, but more a pit of frustration!!

I have visited several sites which are more focused toward ARA, but non that I found went into any great detail of technique or any help on the issues I am addressing.  If you can give me exact site or link to sites that have this, I would greatly appreciate.

Thanks,

Jackpine
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #9 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 9:16pm
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Jackpine sounds like you got the bases covered. Practice and more practice will pay dividends. You are well on your way.
Keep em center,
Scott
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #10 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 9:35pm
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Schuetzendave,

What you say all makes sense and practice the majority of what you are saying.  Hard to argue with your success.  I would appreciate clarification on a couple of points.  When you are talking about the level of the rifle, you mean the level or angle front to rear, right, not the cant of the rifle.

I remember reading a forum years back when two guys got into a real Peeing contest, but none was relevant to me, so I didn't pay a lot of attention and have a poor memory, so can you explain what you have.

Also, I was surprised that you adjust the elevation by sliding the rifle foreward and back.  Understand what you are doing there, and again, it obviously works well for you, but I was of the understanding that return to the same spot, using a stop, was considered very crucial.  Is this method what you have always used or did you progress to this.

All others, thanks for your input,

Thanks,

Jackpine
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #11 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 12:01am
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When the bag is stabilized/aligned after shooting the rifle will always travel straight back with recoil.

When you move the bag or front rest then the rifle will not be in complete alignment so that when it recoils it will move the bullet a bit left or right from where you had sighted it in for. It then takes a number of shots before the bags will shift back into straight alignment from the recoil from the shots.

Many rests have a stop to reposition the rifle to but when I used it I was not always perfectly back to center for elevation which required changing my benchrest position to adjust the rear knob up or down - meaning i was no longer in the same postion after the adjustment plus the time it took to readust the elevation with the back screw.

I removed the stop which allowed me to slightly move forward or backward to perfectly adjust my elevation without moving from my benchrest position and without taking additional time to adjust the benchrest screws.

A stop puts you back to the relative same postion but does not place you to the perfect zero position on the center of your target.

Sliding the rifle forward or backwards when you have a perch belly stock allows you to more quickly and effciently reset your rifle for the next shot.

However people who have adopted flat bottom stocks are forced to take more time and adjust the rear screw which is not as efficient adn contiually forces you to change your benchrest position which is not a good thing to do.

Improved accuracy is being setup in your approriate position to catch the change in the wind condition that you have sighted in for.

You miss those opportuntites if you are wasting time adjusting your rear screw or repositioning yourself after realigning your rifle after the recoil.

The most important thing I learned from Tommy Mason was being ready and patient to catch the wind condition you sighted in for.

That is why I have loaded cases ready to insert (without changing my benchrest position) and do NOT waste time reloading a single case at the bench between shots.

I have a Bald Eagle slingshot rest cast in iron with a windage top using a Edgewood front bag.
I have a rear Bald Eagle sand bag.
These sandbags are more solid, and firm and hold the rifle's position far better than the somewhat more flimsy Protector bags.
I have a flat bottom front forearm with a perch belly rear stock on a Miller Dehass action shooting a 236 grain bullet in .32 RKS gain twist barrel finishing at 11.5:1 twist.
« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2024 at 12:20am by Schuetzendave »  
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JackHughs
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #12 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 1:22am
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Jackpine wrote on Sep 3rd, 2024 at 9:00pm:
JackHughs,

I agree that ARA can be a money pit, which is why I opted to go with Factory, still a pit, but more a pit of frustration!!

I have visited several sites which are more focused toward ARA, but non that I found went into any great detail of technique or any help on the issues I am addressing.  If you can give me exact site or link to sites that have this, I would greatly appreciate.


Now that I know that you're shooting the ARA Factory Class, I thnk that a part of your problem may be "cant."

I'm not aware of any Factory Class legal rifles that come with a flat fore arm and the rules do not permit a competitor to add a "plate" to the fore arm - so cant is something to be aware of.

JackHughs 

  

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Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #13 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 10:05am
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This forum is about ASSRA and ISSA benchrest shoot using single shot rifles using plain base cast bullets.
These rifle shoot at a very low velocity and have signifcantly more wind drift due to the bullet being exposed to the the wind for a longer period of time.

AR rifle shooting using high velocity jacketed bullets are less susceptible from wind drift however some techniques are transferrable.

For high powered shooting I ensure my forearm is fully free floating and I use a "U" shaped bag to rest the front part of the forearm.

I can naturaly tell if my crosshairs are perfectly level and that cant is not an issue.

For those who are not so certain a levelling bubble can be attached so you know the rifle is perfectly upright with no cant.
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #14 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 12:48pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Sep 4th, 2024 at 10:05am:
This forum is about ASSRA and ISSA benchrest shoot using single shot rifles using plain base cast bullets.
These rifle shoot at a very low velocity and have signifcantly more wind drift due to the bullet being exposed to the the wind for a longer period of time.
AR rifle shooting using high velocity jacketed bullets are less susceptible from wind drift however some techniques are transferrable.


ARA is the American Rimfire Association.  The OP is shooting in the ARA Factory Class which requires the use of magazine or tube-fed .22 rimfire rifles.

A general discussion of ARA competition would be certainly off topic for this forum. However, having competed in both ASSRA and ISSA Schuetzen events and in ARA rimfire events, I can state with certainty that all benchrest skills and wind reading skills are transferable between the two disciplines . 

In my opinion, discussion of benchrest technique is appropriate to this Forum. 

JackHughs

   
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #15 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 3:59pm
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benchrest technique IS VERY appropriate here!
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #16 - Sep 4th, 2024 at 6:44pm
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Hey Guys,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the input and advice.  I did not mean to cause any issue and have some clarfication, comments and lots more questions, but am having surgery tomorrow morning, not any time till a get that our of the way.

Good Lord willing, I will be back to pick your brains in a week.

Thanks again,

Jackpine
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #17 - Sep 5th, 2024 at 4:59am
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Wishing you the very best on the surgery.
  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #18 - Sep 6th, 2024 at 9:53am
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My equipment for .22 LR uses the same benchrest setup using a BSA Martini International MKII with a RKS barrel with an extension for shooting iron sights.

When I shoot BR50 I offset and aim at the green bullseye circle edge to offset for changes to the wind direction. This enables placement of more shots in the bullseye.

On this target the shots in the green ring were from not offsetting enough for the displacement of the bullet by the wind - ussually due to slight variation in wind intensity.
If I had not offset my aiming point the bullet strikes would have been outside the inner green ring.

I use the wind chart to indcate how the wind will change the impact of the bullets.

All the best with your surgery.
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2024 at 10:06am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #19 - Sep 6th, 2024 at 10:40am
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Here's a photo of one of the set ups.  Most of the shooters at EG  have a very similar style.  I'll see if I can find a shot without a scope in the way.  The rest is a Randolph,  but there are  Bald Eagles,  Caldwells, and Home made designs on the line
  

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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #20 - Sep 9th, 2024 at 3:11pm
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Note that the above wind drift chart is for right hand twist barrels.

Things change a bit with a left twist.

  
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Re: Bench rest; What am I missing?
Reply #21 - Sep 11th, 2024 at 10:51am
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JackHughs wrote on Sep 4th, 2024 at 1:22am:
Jackpine wrote on Sep 3rd, 2024 at 9:00pm:
JackHughs,

I agree that ARA can be a money pit, which is why I opted to go with Factory, still a pit, but more a pit of frustration!!

I have visited several sites which are more focused toward ARA, but non that I found went into any great detail of technique or any help on the issues I am addressing.  If you can give me exact site or link to sites that have this, I would greatly appreciate.


Now that I know that you're shooting the ARA Factory Class, I thnk that a part of your problem may be "cant."

I'm not aware of any Factory Class legal rifles that come with a flat fore arm and the rules do not permit a competitor to add a "plate" to the fore arm - so cant is something to be aware of.

JackHughs 



Man, you sure are wasting a lot of paper there Jack.  I find with a little concentration I can carefully place my bullets all over the paper so none of it goes to waste.  I’ll be happy to coach you on my improved technique if you like.  Roll Eyes Grin Angry Cheesy
Froggie
  
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