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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP? (Read 1347 times)
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Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Aug 27th, 2024 at 11:22pm
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I recently acquired an original Ideal No 5 powder measure, partly for the novelty and part to use with my smokeless powder Schuetzen loads. Studying it more though I’m curious if it’s considered safe by today standards for black powder. 

The measure has a cast iron housing and the drum is part steel and part brass, no plastic of course like most measures from today. The patent date on the side is 1892 and looking up in an old handbook I note that DuPont didn’t introduce their shotgun and rifle smokeless powders until 1893/94. The graduations are for bulk black powder loads. 

So certainly was made with black powder in mind but would anyone today trust it still? Not that folks back then were wreckless but what are the standards for a safe BP measure today? Would it be just no plastic or all internals made from brass and not steel? Not sure I’ll actually try BP on it but just wondering what others opinion are here.

Thanks,
-Dave
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #1 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 12:17am
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I have been using mine for BP for many years. I also use a Redding and it's all steel. No problems ever.
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #2 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 9:17am
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I sure hope it’s safe, as the Ideal #5 is my go-to measure for all my black powder cartridge reloading.

Bought it at a long-ago gun show because I thought it looked Cool, and have been using it since I started playing around with such loads a quarter-century or so ago.  Only problem is the drum occasionally gets sticky.  Taking it out (one screw), wiping down all surfaces with a damp cloth, then a dry one, and putting it back together cures the problem until the next time.

I don’t think that in a small-quantity home operation that the avoidance of all ferrous metals at all times is necessarily warranted.  You certainly don’t want ferrous metals that are capable of sparking, but cast iron and stainless or mild steel, operating at low speed by a careful hand and an attentive mind, shouldn’t be any more hazardous than driving to the store in traffic to buy more powder.

Of course, with a large, possibly automated operation like BP manufacturing, you would go for every possible percentage point, eliminating any possible source of any problem that one could think of.  No ferrous at all there; maybe even no metal-to-metal contact at all.
  
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GunBum
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 10:03am
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I’ll weigh in here with a little background and credentials.  Of course I hate when random people on the internet post credentials then give opinions. Grin

I do pyrotechnics and explosives chemistry for a living.  I have a Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry and have been doing dangerous stuff with things that go boom for over 20 years.  I deal with a lot of black powder and pyrotechnics that are similar chemically to black powder regularly at my day job.  Not just small quantities, but large enough quantities that an accident would be life ending.  Black powder is fairly easy to ignite.  It has high sensitivity to impact, friction, and electrostatic discharge.  Of course fire makes it burn readily too. Wink

All that being said, the advice you were given so far is sound.  Ferrous metals are generally bad.  Cast iron is preferred over steel, and is generally viewed as “safe.”  Nonferrous metals are better.  Plastic is also bad.  You want a dispenser that won’t create one of the big three problems: won’t spark, doesn’t have high friction, and won’t crate a hammering impact.  Most ferrous metals will spark.  Plastic holds, then discharges static electricity.   

Even with all my understanding of pyrotechnic safety at work and the need to be bonded and grounded while working, I also use an Ideal No 5 to dispense black powder without any worries about safety other than common sense.

One safety practice that I’ve carried over from my professional life is limiting the height of the powder column in the dispenser.  Even with smokeless powder, I don’t use ridiculously long powder dispenser hoppers.  Why?  Explosive powders have a “critical height.”  I’m simplifying this, but it is the depth of powder column that will transition from a burn to an explosion.  For black powder it is a really short column of powder.  It’s the difference from an inadvertent ignition causing a whoosh to that ignition causing a BOOM.  Neither is good, but the powder burning rapidly and scaring the pee out of you is better than the powder going boom.  I’ve never seen it while reloading, but I’ve seen the security camera footage of powder hoppers in industrial settings both burning away and exploding.  The difference in the state of the workers after the accidents made me a believer in limiting the critical height.  It’s all about how fast the stored energy in the powder is released.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #4 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 7:03pm
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I have used one for over fifty years with no trouble. One thing to do is NOT screw down the lid after filling the measure if for some unknown reason it goes off the force and lid will go sky high.
I understand that building at powder mills do not have the roofs fastened to the inner walls. Gunbum may know more about that?
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #5 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 8:10pm
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All the black powder mills I’ve been in have fully attached roofs.  Otherwise they come off on a windy day.  The walls are usually blast proof enough that all the force is directed upwards, and a little wood and tin roofing isn’t holding it back no matter how well attached.  The Goex mill (now Estes), 20ish mills in China, mills in Mexico, Cambodia, Switzerland, and Brazil are all constructed around 3 different black powder mixing processes.  All of them have attached roofs. 

A couple years ago the mill in Cambodia had a lightning strike one night on their polishing shed.  The building was gone the next morning.  Gone.  About a ton of black powder and the building disappeared in the blink of an eye.  Luckily the factory was empty except for the security guards, so no one was hurt.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #6 - Aug 28th, 2024 at 10:08pm
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Thank you all for the great answers and tips. Really appreciate it. One follow up question for those measuring BP, do you find you can measure coarse BP (F or 1.5F) just as well as FF or FFF?
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #7 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 10:01am
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Thanks for your professional insight GunBum. But I gotta say when I was younger I heard so many horror stories about guys losing arms fingers you name it from two different scenarios. Loading BP in old Ideal or Lyman throws and sympathetic ignition of primer tubes. Never saw or heard of any proof but some guys always just had to beat on that drum. 

But this is true. I was at a big BP shoot in New Hampshire and watched these two older gents unloading and setting up some big heavy slug guns including their tools, reloading equipment including a couple of Ideal throws. The range officer approached them and told them they’d have to leave the range if they tried to use those ‘ dangerous powder throws ‘. They packed up set down with coffee and donuts and within half hour not one of the slug gun community was shooting that day. Lots of pissed off shooters but this range officer who acted like he was still barking orders in the Army would not back off

Rick

Rick
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #8 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 11:59am
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A range officer once told me I couldn't shoot a 32-40 on the 200 yard range. Not powerful enough he said. He turned out to be a swell guy and apologized once he read up on it. 

On two occasions have had shooters leave the firing line when I was throwing BP from a Redding measure. Two Wyoming shooters and Don Moore.
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #9 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:07pm
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From what I've read on powder mills, they only used shingles to cover the whole building so, when they did blow up, that they didn't loose the main structure and could rebuild cheaper.

It was easier to replace workers than the building.

I was always cautious about what powder measure I used. I bought a CH measure that had a aluminum housing and a chromed rotor BUT, it had a large plastic hopper LOL Good for height but BAD for static! I've also used a 55 with a plastic hopper. 

I now have a few 5's I would probably use if I ever shot BP again.

Don didn't care about plastic, he shot along with me at both SS and slug gun matches Smiley
« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #10 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm
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A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #11 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 2:17pm
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I believe there are plastics (a really broad term) that do not generate static electricity.  That said, a local gun shop owner told me of a local woman who had a container of smokeless powder go up in flames as she was carrying it on a static charged carpet.  Bad burns, costly settlement for the manufacturer.

Jack
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #12 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm
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steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #13 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:29pm
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frnkeore wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:07pm:
From what I've read on powder mills, they only used shingles to cover the whole building so, when they did blow up, that they didn't loose the main structure and could rebuild cheaper.


No one has built powder mills like that for the last 100 years. Wink
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #14 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:31pm
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Yea, OSHA ruins everything Smiley
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #15 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:36pm
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There is a very long list of plastic resins that will not support static electricity. Military, aerospace, electronic components with various resin cast parts and covers are such. Today’s carbon fiber aircraft parts including fuselage and wings are static free. Static electricity bottom line will destroy almost all sensitive electronic sub-assembly parts including circuit boards. I have no idea what inexpensive powder containers are roto-molded from but I’m sure they are ESd type 
( electrostatic discharge ) Plastics.

On my plastic reservoir Redding powder throws I dip in dish soap and let dry problem solved

Rick
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #16 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 7:40pm
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I rub the plastic reservoir on my Redding powder measure with dryer sheets.  Otherwise ball powders and small flake powders like to stick.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #17 - Aug 29th, 2024 at 11:14pm
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Black plastic. Something made it black. Maybe carbon ... which is at least somewhat conductive ...
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #18 - Aug 30th, 2024 at 1:25pm
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I took a couple empty black plastic powder canisters to work one day and tested them on our Shoe Tester.

This was a pair of platforms with an ohm meter between them.  You stood on the platforms in your conductive safety shoes and if the impedance was less than 5 ohms, you were OK to work with energetic materials.  If it was more, you had enough dirt on the shoe soles, weren't wearing the proper cotton socks, or whatever, and the situation needed to be corrected before you could work in the labs.

One canister had held Swiss black powder, and the other one was a round Hodgdon smokeless canister.  The Swiss container read less than 5 ohms, the Hodgdon read infinity.  So I figured the Swiss packaging had been done in accordance with their safety practices (and had, of course, added to the cost) while the Hodgdon containers reflected the lower  sensitivity to electrostatic initiation that smokeless powder has.

Olde Eynsford didn't exist back then and all other black powders from Goex came in metal cans, so I never repeated the test.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #19 - Aug 30th, 2024 at 2:14pm
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GunBum wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm:
steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.

That and the fact that the sensitivity to static discharge is only as dust, above LEL, suspended in the air...
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #20 - Aug 30th, 2024 at 9:29pm
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 2:14pm:
GunBum wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm:
steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.

That and the fact that the sensitivity to static discharge is only as dust, above LEL, suspended in the air...


Not true.  Black powder kernels are ignitable by static discharge.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #21 - Aug 30th, 2024 at 11:20pm
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Not scientific, but years ago I tried to ignite 4F kernels with a static charge from the internals of a long gas lighter.  All it did was to puch them around the desktop.  Don't take this as an indication that static is not dangerous around BP.  I am sure you have heard the story of the welder who thought storing BP in a metal coffee can with a plastic lid was a good idea.  Sparks will set off BP!
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #22 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 1:44am
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steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?
Cheers,
Steve


Steve,

The containers are made of antistatic plastic.  Although antistatic plastic can be made in many colors, clear, red, etc., the plastic containers BP is shipped in are typically black and contain small amounts of carbon to make the plastic slightly conductive to electricity (antistatic).  So, pouring BP out of the containers cannot build up a static charge.

The development of antistatic plastic was the result of the semiconductor industries need to reduce the cost of shipping integrated circuits (ICs) in the 1980’s, which were commonly shipped in “conductive” aluminum tubes at the time.  Some ICs are sensitive to even low levels of static discharge.  Most of my career was spent in the semiconductor industry and I remember reading at the time that materials with a surface resistance of as much as several hundred thousand ohms per square inch would drain away any static charge.  Using a standard VOM (volt ohm meter) or multi-meter, one can actually determine if the plastic used in BP shipping bottles is antistatic.

To verify I grabbed a black plastic bottle of Swiss 1.5Fg and my handy Harbor Freight multi-meter, the one they use to give away if you purchase anything at the store.  With the meter set on ohms and the sharp-tip probes inserted into the plastic about an inch apart, the resistance was around 300,000 ohms, sufficient to eliminate a static charge buildup.  Just to double check, I also used an expensive multi-meter with the same results.

Wayne
  

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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #23 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 2:11am
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GunBum wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 9:29pm:
MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 2:14pm:
GunBum wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm:
steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.

That and the fact that the sensitivity to static discharge is only as dust, above LEL, suspended in the air...


Not true.  Black powder kernels are ignitable by static discharge. 

A static discharge in a typical home, non-industrial environment?  With all the charcoal (carbon) in there, acting as a conductor?
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #24 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 10:16am
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 31st, 2024 at 2:11am:
GunBum wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 9:29pm:
MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 2:14pm:
GunBum wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm:
steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.

That and the fact that the sensitivity to static discharge is only as dust, above LEL, suspended in the air...


Not true.  Black powder kernels are ignitable by static discharge. 

A static discharge in a typical home, non-industrial environment?  With all the charcoal (carbon) in there, acting as a conductor?

 
This is why I don’t usually comment on stuff like this.  There’s always an expert on the internet who contradicts hundreds of thousands of lab tests.

I’m not talking about discharging through the plastic powder container.  It only takes less than 0.5% carbon black to make an HDPE container a very dark black color, so I don’t know what you mean by “all that charcoal.”  Velostat, or similar plastic containers are different.  How they are different?  Ask a polymer chemist or polymer engineer.  But they are different.  That’s why they are used for static sensitive materials.  That’s already been engineered out.  All the other plastic in your loading room hasn’t necessarily been thought of.

When you rub your feet on the carpet and shock someone, that’s well below the ignition energy for black powder.  You deliver much more energy when discharging than a barbecue lighter with the spark igniter.  Black powder is well into the sensitivity range for primary explosives.  So, can you set off a kernel of black powder sitting in a container?  Possible?  Yes.  Probable?  If the sun, the moon, and the stars align.  We all assume some level of risk when loading.  I’m ok with the low probability, but the probability is not zero, and definitely not only for clouds of dust above the LEL.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #25 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 12:51pm
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Thanks for the information and education.

Cheers,
Steve
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #26 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 2:11pm
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GunBum wrote on Aug 31st, 2024 at 10:16am:
MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 31st, 2024 at 2:11am:
GunBum wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 9:29pm:
MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 30th, 2024 at 2:14pm:
GunBum wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 4:27pm:
steveu wrote on Aug 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:
A question for gunbum, if plastic is bad, due to the possibility of a static discharge, why is all the BP from goex and Swiss in plastic containers?

Cheers,
Steve


It’s a special kind of plastic that won’t hold a static charge.  I was generalizing in my comments.  There are always exceptions to everything.

That and the fact that the sensitivity to static discharge is only as dust, above LEL, suspended in the air...


Not true.  Black powder kernels are ignitable by static discharge. 

A static discharge in a typical home, non-industrial environment?  With all the charcoal (carbon) in there, acting as a conductor?

 
This is why I don’t usually comment on stuff like this.  There’s always an expert on the internet who contradicts hundreds of thousands of lab tests.

I’m not talking about discharging through the plastic powder container.  It only takes less than 0.5% carbon black to make an HDPE container a very dark black color, so I don’t know what you mean by “all that charcoal.”  Velostat, or similar plastic containers are different.  How they are different?  Ask a polymer chemist or polymer engineer.  But they are different.  That’s why they are used for static sensitive materials.  That’s already been engineered out.  All the other plastic in your loading room hasn’t necessarily been thought of.

When you rub your feet on the carpet and shock someone, that’s well below the ignition energy for black powder.  You deliver much more energy when discharging than a barbecue lighter with the spark igniter.  Black powder is well into the sensitivity range for primary explosives.  So, can you set off a kernel of black powder sitting in a container?  Possible?  Yes.  Probable?  If the sun, the moon, and the stars align.  We all assume some level of risk when loading.  I’m ok with the low probability, but the probability is not zero, and definitely not only for clouds of dust above the LEL.

Yup, from the guy who sent quite a lot of time making explosion safety files in industry.
  
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #27 - Aug 31st, 2024 at 4:06pm
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For something as common as static discharge is most people don’t know how critical this condition is to a wide variety of materials and products. My Wife was a QA engineer for aerospace-satellite electronic components lots of very costly highly engineered circuit boards. She’d spend months watching and testing these boards then hours insuring they were packaged per spec to be 100% static proof. Then a courier would hand carry the package on the plane back to the assembly facility. Over the years many parts were ruined before they figured out packaging. On USN minesweepers there are discharge wands for anybody working around mines. 

Rick
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Re: Is an Ideal No 5 powder measure safe with BP?
Reply #28 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 5:31pm
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Be sure to empty and clean/blow out the BP when not in use, especially if you’re in a humid area. The powder or powder dust will suck up the moisture and cause you unwanted issues. Ask me how I know……. Huh
  

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