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Judge 1879
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Help identify this caliber
Aug 15th, 2024 at 8:20am
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Hello all, I recently purchased a W. Wurfflein and have made a chamber cast, however I'm not really sure if I'm reading the measurements properly.  Starting from the rim it measures. 460, the base 3.78, the neck is .350, and the case length seems to be 1.30. The muzzle diameter is .300, while the end of the mold prior to the rifling is 
.324, the total length of the casting before the rifling is 1.82 including the rim. 1.74 not included the rim.
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2024 at 10:40am by Judge 1879 »  
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yamoon
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #1 - Aug 15th, 2024 at 12:43pm
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May be 8.15x46r, a very common European target round.
Mike
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #2 - Aug 15th, 2024 at 12:59pm
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Is the base diameter actually .378?

I have no idea of what the caliber might have been called but, it sounds like it will be easy to make cases for it, with either 357 mag or 357 max. The rim thickness may be to great though w/o a shim.

You didn't say if it has rifling. If so, is the bore .300 and what is the groove diameter?

Also, the shape of the chamber sounds like it could be for a "stop ring" bullet.

Could we get a good picture of the chamber cast?
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #3 - Aug 15th, 2024 at 2:43pm
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Sharpe’s “Rifle in America” lists the models of Wurfflein rifles, and the  cartridges for which they were chambered.  Barnes’ “Cartridges of the World”, gives descriptions of most odd cartridges.

CHRIS
  
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Judge 1879
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #4 - Aug 15th, 2024 at 7:51pm
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I am having a difficult time uploading pictures,  I'll try again. And yes it does have rifling, I will measure the grove depth. It is such a beautiful rile and the barrel and bore are near perfect. Again I'll attempt to upload pictures.
  
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Judge 1879
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #5 - Aug 15th, 2024 at 9:18pm
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Have recast the chamber( sulpher is sooo darn fragile).
Remeasured and yep the measurements are the same. I tried to get the rifle groove depth and came up with .004, .296/.300. I originally thought it was a bottleneck but then realized that I was looking at the place the actual bullet is in the chamber. I still can't upload images ( says they are too large) any idea on how to fix that? Thanks for all your help.
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2024 at 10:52pm by Judge 1879 »  
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25cal
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #6 - Aug 16th, 2024 at 1:24pm
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Hard to tell from the dimensions given, but might possibly be one of the Wesson 30 calibers, 30-30 or if it's a bottle neck 30-40. They are both listed as slightly shorter OAL, but they were around in the same era as the rifle originally. According to Donnelly they can be formed from 357 Max. brass.
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #7 - Aug 16th, 2024 at 1:32pm
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Judge,

Your computer photo gallery should have a menu at the top that reads "properties." Click on that and select "resize and save."
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #8 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 3:04am
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Can you give us the A, B, C lengths?
  

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Judge 1879
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #9 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 9:43am
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So it looks like dimension "A" is 1.30, if "C" is overall leanththen that is 1.82, if it's the shoulder to the top it is .52, and "B" is .70
Now if we are also looking at the throat of the cartridge it measures. 354 and the " bullet" is 
329
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #10 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 12:05pm
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That doesn't add up.

1.3 + .700 = 2.0, longer than what you say is the overall length of 1.82.

It looks kind of like it could be a 30/30 Wesson. The 1.3 would be about right but, the "B" dimension would need to be nearer .32 - .36.

To me, it looks like A + B would = case length and C minus B would = the throat.
  

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Dellet
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #11 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 1:55pm
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Maybe loosely based on a 30-30 Wesson but the bore diameter is too small .296/.300” and the neck diameter to large at .350”. 

The brass would have been extremely thick, .025” or so to seat a .300” bullet.

A better casting might help, and include at least 1/2” of rifling.
  
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Judge 1879
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #12 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 7:19pm
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I will do another casting. Honestly this is very confusing.  I may have to take it to a gunsmith. But finding one who is familiar with vintage arms
  
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Dellet
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #13 - Aug 17th, 2024 at 11:16pm
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Judge 1879 wrote on Aug 17th, 2024 at 7:19pm:
I will do another casting. Honestly this is very confusing.  I may have to take it to a gunsmith. But finding one who is familiar with vintage arms


I think with good measurements it’s possible to ID. There were very few cartridges with a .300” groove. Hard part is bore sizes weren’t exactly reliable. 

More important is the body taper, shoulder if there’s is one and neck diameters. 

Below is a photo of a 30-30 Wesson and a 32-30 Remington.   
  
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Judge 1879
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Re: Help identify this caliber
Reply #14 - Sep 18th, 2024 at 7:57am
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After much study and the cartridges of the world book I believe it is a 30-30 Wesson. and of course the 357 Max cases are nowhere to be found. So for the time being I guess the rifle sits quietly as it has for many many years.Dellet wrote on Aug 17th, 2024 at 11:16pm:
Judge 1879 wrote on Aug 17th, 2024 at 7:19pm:
I will do another casting. Honestly this is very confusing.  I may have to take it to a gunsmith. But finding one who is familiar with vintage arms


I think with good measurements it’s possible to ID. There were very few cartridges with a .300” groove. Hard part is bore sizes weren’t exactly reliable. 

More important is the body taper, shoulder if there’s is one and neck diameters. 

Below is a photo of a 30-30 Wesson and a 32-30 Remington.  

  
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