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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895 (Read 1814 times)
toppkatt
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.38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Jul 29th, 2024 at 3:21pm
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I bought a Steven's 44 1/2 rifle in .38-55. I've looked in my reloading manuals (some back to the 1970's when I first started reloading and some brand new). I can't seem to find a load for a 255 Gr. lead Postel bullet. I contacted Hodgdon and while I got some loads the bullet weight (from Lyman cast bullet manual) listed 24 gr of IMR 4198 for a 249Gr (375248) and 20 gr of IMR 4198 for a Lyman 375449 264 Gr bullet. From Load Data (a subscription service) I get 20 gr of IMR 4198 behind a 255 JSP. 
I leaning toward 20 or 21 Gr IMR 4198 to start. 
Does anyone else have a better suggestion (I know trusting internet data could lead to TROUBLE, but I think I have at least a starting point, just looking for tweaks/suggestions).
The cast bullet BTW is a Steve Brooks Postel 255Gr.
Thank you to all who have more experience with this rifle/load/reloading than I have. Previously I've only shot black powder in my .38-55 Ballard with 255 Gr bullet.
Again I appreciate your help.
I listed the powders I have available, hence all the IMR powders. I do have Unique too if that would be a better option. Or point me toward a manual that actually has the bullet type (cast lead) weight (255Gr) and in this caliber (38-55) and I'd be happy (assuming I can locate the manual Smiley
  
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4570mike
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #1 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 6:31pm
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I shoot various matches and for the 38-55, 18gr. of 4198 has shown to be very consistent.  Most often, I shoot a 330gr. slug dropped from an Accurate Mold.
This combination has worked very well out to 400 yds.
Last weekend, a friend was using 30gr. of IMR4895 with a 330+/- gr. slug and did very well.
That same match. I used 21gr. of 4198 in a 40-65 with a 335gr. slug and had a 43/50 on hanging silhouettes. Four of the misses were OH and only one at 400 yds.
I find using a "tuff" of TP over the powder to keep it in place by the primer aids in consistency.
If you can find it, 4198 seems to be a versatile powder for the large capacity cases.
BTW; I'm low on standard primers and find the mag primers are not a handicap.
Mike.
  
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boats
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #2 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 6:40pm
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My 38/55 smokeless  loading data comes from two sources loads other guys have recommended  over the years and data from Sharpes 1937 complete guide to Handloading. This cross referenced with other vintage manuals too.  4227 is essentially a replacement for  SR # 75 and Unique is the Unique we use today. SR # 80 also in Sharps book is essentially 4759 no longer produced .  

4227 38/55 load I use for a 255 gr cast bullet loaded fixed is 17 grains. It’s straight from Sharpes book after switching powder numbers to reflect the newer product. It gives Black Powder velocity’s allowing switching propellants according to match rules with similar sight settings. Have used light charges of Unique also from Sharpes book when sub sonic is required gallery 

The 17 gr 4227 load is very mild and gives complete combustion. Have used the other powders you mentioned don’t think any are optimal for 38/55 255 gr. Others may 2nd my advise or disagree. 

Boats
  
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Premod70
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #3 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 7:49pm
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Boats is spot on, there’s not a better starting load out there.
  
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boats
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #4 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 8:32pm
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Noted 45/70 mikes comments. He is correct 4198 can be very good with heavy bullets in the 38/55 . Many if not most new made 38/55 rifles will have fast twist barrels and handle 330 gr bullets well. Original guns and early CPA rifle’s like mine are 18 twist and pretty much limited to 300 gr bullets. Lighter bullets with a slower powder  like 4198 not likely to give complete combustion or need fillers to burn properly.

That’s why I stick with 4227 in my rifle, 255 gr bullets . If you want to test run a dozen or so shells through the gun. Then push a single lightly oiled patch through the bore. On the ground set the patch on fire. Unburned powder will “ fizz” very different  than powder soot, it won’t ignite.

Boats
  
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4570mike
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #5 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 9:22pm
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Boats brings up a very good point I didn't mention.  All my SS are modern made and the 38-55's are mostly 1:15 twist.
I have CPA's and a DZ Hepburn (all 38-55's) with a 1:14 twist and these will handle a 375gr. slug out to 500M. 
Actually, the best all around powder I found for any of these old large capacity cases was BH209. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find and hugely expensive.
Mike.
  
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4570mike
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #6 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 9:29pm
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Unburned powder will “ fizz” very different  than powder soot, it won’t ignite

I do shoot a 250 gr. slug with the same 18gr. of 4198.  Usually an OH load.

I'll have to try your "test" and see if it "fizzes"  Huh

Thanks,

Mike.
  
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toppkatt
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #7 - Jul 29th, 2024 at 10:54pm
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Good to hear 4198 is a fair powder if not best. I called a friend and he has a little 4227, so I'll try about 10-20 with that and maybe 10-20 with 4198 and see what happens. My rifle happens to be a older Steven's with a 1:18 twist (if I calculated it properly) so I wanted a lighter bullet.
  
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boats
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #8 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 5:10am
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4198 (corrected) is good it’s just different and best suited for a heavier bullet.  Think about your rifle like a internal combustion engine. Diesels are heavier operate slower at higher pressure and use slower burning fuel. Gasoline engine lighter higher rpm and uses faster burn fuel. 

Guns no different heavy bullet cartridges typically use slower powders light bullet ctgs faster powders. Get a relative quickness powder chart off the internet & have a look at the various powders burning speed.

My CPA 38/55 was built 1993, at the time most production 375 barrels were 18 twist. Faster came later as people appreciated performance possible from a longer 375 bullet.  That’s the reason new made 38/55’s are 375 instead of original size .380. 375 was available. Might check your original 44 1/2 barrel for bore size as well as  twist. Never owned a original can’t say what they are.

Again that’s more what I think than what I know. Might be wrong 

Boats
« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2024 at 5:37pm by boats »  
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gunlaker
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #9 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 8:56am
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I'll have to give H-4198 a try in mine.  I have done a little bit of experimenting recently with the chronograph and IMR-4227 with 320gr bullets.  I was getting over 100 fps variation in muzzle velocity on some shots which explains some weird flyers.

Chris.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #10 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 10:34am
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4198 is one of my favorite rifle powders and I use it in numerous large cases. That data for .38-55 with higher charges is pretty toasty, and I'd stick with 18-20 grs. of 4198 to start out, and you may end up staying with that range forever.
  

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Ranch13
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #11 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 11:08am
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4198 has long been the go to powder for the old cartridges.
It and 4895 are great favorites with the shooters that use smokeless at the bpcr gong matches.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #12 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 2:09pm
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Ranch13 wrote on Jul 30th, 2024 at 11:08am:
4198 has long been the go to powder for the old cartridges.
It and 4895 are great favorites with the shooters that use smokeless at the bpcr gong matches.

Don, I hear a lot of shooters out your way are moving to Blackhorn and having great success at the Quigley, Baker, Ekalaka shoots etc, Not cheap at $80 a half pound.
  
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4570mike
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #13 - Jul 30th, 2024 at 3:42pm
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Old-Win wrote on Jul 30th, 2024 at 2:09pm:
Ranch13 wrote on Jul 30th, 2024 at 11:08am:
4198 has long been the go to powder for the old cartridges.
It and 4895 are great favorites with the shooters that use smokeless at the bpcr gong matches.

Don, I hear a lot of shooters out your way are moving to Blackhorn and having great success at the Quigley, Baker, Ekalaka shoots etc, Not cheap at $80 a half pound.


I'm surprised BH209 isn't talked about much.  I have been using it for almost ten years and just began looking for substitutes (how ironic Undecided) since it has become hard to find and stupid expensive.  I've loaded 32-40 to 45-70 and everything in between with it and always had great results.
Even worked great in muzzle loaders  Wink
Mike.
  
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #14 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 1:38pm
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BH209 was pretty popular for a while, but then when the KIK factory closed, it pretty much disappeared. It's back now but terrible expensive.
I still have a few cans it works good in the 45-70, never tried it in the 38-55, was thinking about giving it a run in my wcf chambered guns, just to safe on my meager supply of OE 3f.

Some have reported good results with the buffalo gun? powder but I haven't ever tried it.
  
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #15 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 6:05pm
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The little bit I shot 38-55 back in the day, I mostly used the late, lamented 4759 we've mentioned here, with 4227 which also seems to be on the chopping block.

Accurate #9 (disguised as H108) showed a little promise and the folks at Accurate suggested we try their 5744 (although I never did.)  I guess there's a little advantage to getting old and slowing down... my supply of 4759 and H108 I've got stashed away will likely outlast me.
  
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #16 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 11:06pm
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Take a look at Alliant Reloader 7.
It is right next to 4198 on the Hodgdon's burn rate chart.
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 lists loads for the 38-55 with bullets from 248gr to 335gr.
I found the Re 7 to shoot Very Small groups with the 248 and 
265 grain lyman bullets in my Marlin 336 CB for  a good deer load.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: .38-55 smokeless loads (IMR4064, IMR4198 & IMR4895
Reply #17 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 5:56am
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Thanks to all who have replied. The many suggestions and alternate resources have given me many good loads and places to look for more.
Kudos to boats who has gone above and beyond anything I anticipated and thought he deserved a shout out!
Thanks again and hope at some point I might be of service to a fellow shooter like I have received.
  
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