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Ballard question for collectors (Read 833 times)

waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2845 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Ballard question for collectors Jun 1^st, 2024 at 12:04pm	Print Post
	On the IAA cartridge collectors forum, the following question was just posted. I thought someone here might know the answer. G. A. Hoyem in the History and development of small arms ammunition, Vol 4, page 52, writes this about the .40-65 Ballard Everlasting: “This is a heavier case and slightly larger in dimensions than that above [.40-63], so it will not chamber in the rifles made for .40-63 or .40-70.” Head D: .470 vs .507, Rim D: .555 vs .598 In the 1881 Marlin catalog there is a sentence on page 4 under Everlasting Centerfire Shells: “40-63 is same size as 40-65, except that the edge is thin.” What does that mean? What is the “edge” exactly? By reading they are the “same size”, I would guess they would chamber interchangeably - it seems they are not!


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7323 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #1 - Jun 1^st, 2024 at 12:37pm	Print Post
	I had a 40/63 Pacific, until recently. When I first got it, about 20 years ago, I did some reading on the 40/63 and as I remember, the 40/65 Everlasting is the same basic cartridge but, has a thicker neck and so, a larger chamber in the neck area. That would go along with the the “40-63 is same size as 40-65, except that the edge is thin.” quote. Meaning that the edge of the 40/63 mouth is thinner and smaller in diameter. I made my 40/63 cases from 405 Win, 7x57R and 9.3x 74 but, I don't know what you could use to fill the neck on a 40/65 Ballard chamber, other than turned cases.
	« Last Edit: Jun 1^st, 2024 at 12:42pm by frnkeore »
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TomKlinger Junior Member Offline Posts: 89 Joined: Feb 17^th, 2019	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #2 - Jun 1^st, 2024 at 1:14pm	Print Post
	I have a 44/100 Ballard everlasting. It is a paper patch chamber. I found you can make cases out of modern brass, and the thinner case wall allows me to shoot gg bullets out of the thinner brass once fire formed instead of paper patch with the thick everlasting cases.This may work for your 40/65 if it is a pp chamber. A chamber cast will tell. Tom Klinger


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16264 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #3 - Jun 1^st, 2024 at 6:47pm	Print Post
	The .40-63 Everlasting is the same case as the .40-70 Straight Ballard in external dimensions. Just thicker inside walls. But I've read that the necks are the same somewhere, which tells me maybe they meant a thinner edge at the necks? I've never owned a .40-65 Ballard chambered rifle, but have a friend who owns one, and he said the .40-63 and .40-65 are not the same cartridge. One fits the other, but not the reverse. Don't recall which way it goes though? Cartridges of the World lists the .40-65 as having a .508" base diameter, where the .40-63 is a .471"base. Rims are also quite different with the .40-65 having a .600" rim, and the .40-63 having a .555" rim. Both are listed as a .403" case neck, which is incorrect from my experience. Since all 6 of my .40-63 Ballard chambered rifles use a .410"-.412" bullet there's no way a .403" case neck could be right.

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John Rigby Full Member Offline Posts: 212 Location: Midwest Joined: Nov 8^th, 2005	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #4 - Jun 1^st, 2024 at 7:49pm	Print Post
	Vall, I have an original Lower Special in 40-70 (40-63 everlasting) and it is a .403 bore. I use an original Ideal 330 grain .403 mold and Dave Mos PP he made for me.

	John Rigby
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16264 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #5 - Jun 1^st, 2024 at 7:53pm	Print Post
	John Rigby wrote on Jun 1^st, 2024 at 7:49pm: Vall, I have an original Lower Special in 40-70 (40-63 everlasting) and it is a .403 bore. I use an original Ideal 330 grain .403 mold and Dave Mos PP he made for me. Is the Lower Special a Marlin Ballard barrel, or a barrel by JP Lower? All of my various .40 caliber Ballard barrels are in the larger .410"-.412" groove diameter. Everything from the shorter .40-63 to my .40-85 Everlasting.

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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1681 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #6 - Jun 2^nd, 2024 at 3:36am	Print Post
	Well, .403 bore would be .410-.412 groove it would seem, given a groove depth of .004...


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16264 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Ballard question for collectors Reply #7 - Jun 2^nd, 2024 at 10:24am	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2024 at 3:36am: Well, .403 bore would be .410-.412 groove it would seem, given a groove depth of .004... I guess I assumed when he mentioned "bore" and uses a .403 bullet mold he meant groove diameter? Not sure why one would use a bore diameter bullet unless it was for paper patch? His reply does mention "Dave Mos PP" so maybe he is using a paper patch bullet? Going to be huge leading issues if the bullet isn't a paper patch. But I do think that much of the data pointing towards small .403" bullets is for paper patched original cartridges, not for grease groove bullets and the larger groove diameters these old bores have.

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