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cheatin_charlie
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7x57 with black powder
Sep 26th, 2023 at 12:44pm
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I have a really nice 7x57 rolling block rifle.  The thought crossed my mind to try black powder in it.  Question is has anybody have experience in black powder in a bottle neck case?  Is it even worth thinking about?   Someone besides me must have wondered.
  
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waterman
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 2:09pm
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The original .303 British cartridges were loaded with compressed black powder. They tried the BP loads with new-fangled jacketed bullets. I have a Brit Martini-Enfield dated 1893 on the left side of the action. It might have been one of those experimentals. Didn't work well, because the right side of the action was marked 1897 and it had a newer .303 barrel, burned out from Cordite and a lack of cleaning.

Apparently BP was also tried in Switzerland with their original 7.5 mm rifles and paper-patched bullets, either jacketed or very hard lead alloy. Those trials seem to have established smokeless powders as the proper path to follow. 

My understanding of both those early trials is that compressed slugs of BP were loaded into the cartridge cases before the cases were necked down to hold the jacketed bullets in place. You are starting out with a BN case.  You can probably get some sort of compression with a jacketed flat-based bullet, but not as much as the Brits & Swiss did 1888-1890.

I don't predict success, but I don't think you will hurt anything and you will have something to tell us about.  To me, nice rollers in 7x57 are worth some TLC. You might find one in lesser condition for your experiment.

Bottle-necked cases and BP have caused accuracy problems since the beginning of reloadable cases. The earliest Creedmoor cartridges were BN. After the first year or so, straight cartridges replaced them. The Spaniards gave up with their early 11 mm cases and replaced them with the Reformado.

« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2023 at 2:18pm by waterman »  
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marlinguy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #2 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 2:42pm
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If I was contemplating using BP in a 7x57, I'd start with a long drop tube to maximize fill, and then before going any further I'd use a vibrator to vibrate the cases and ensure the powder was as dense as possible before seating a wad and bullet.
You'll also want to fill powder to the bottom of the neck before seating a wad, which means the bullets will likely be seated out quite far, so hopefully your rifle's chamber will accept long OAL cartridges!
After all that, I'd still guess that your results wont be very good, and you're better off using reduced loads of smokeless, and not have to work so hard to get a good load.
I've used the old Ideal handbooks loads for a 130 gr. cast lead bullet and 2400 powder. Loads chronographed around 1900 fps and were comfortable to shoot. I've also used 4198 at around 1700 fps, and gotten good accuracy, and mild loads.
  

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waterman
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #3 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 4:15pm
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The original load intended for those 7x57 rollers was a jacketed RN bullet about 170 grains. You might try a bullet similar to those, but a flat base for sure, using the techniques Val posted.

And tell us the results, please.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #4 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 4:58pm
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Both the Brits and Swiss adopted ~30 cal rifles, anticipating the transition to smokeless.  The Brits used compressed BP, the Swiss used a sort of "semi-smokeless".  Swiss have always been in the fore-front of military rifle developments
CHRIS
  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #5 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 6:45pm
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Black powder doesn’t like bottle neck cases, the smaller the bullet diameter, the less it likes them. It will hammer the shoulder of the case which will lessen the number of reloads before it separates at the shoulder, if you are lucky it will shoot the piece out of the barrel, or you’ll end up having to put a brush down to clear it
Gumpy
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #6 - Oct 1st, 2023 at 1:23pm
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Grumpy gumpy wrote on Sep 26th, 2023 at 6:45pm:
Black powder doesn’t like bottle neck cases, the smaller the bullet diameter, the less it likes them. It will hammer the shoulder of the case which will lessen the number of reloads before it separates at the shoulder, if you are lucky it will shoot the piece out of the barrel, or you’ll end up having to put a brush down to clear it
Gumpy

Now that one is for fairyland.  No issues with BN cases and BP, in fact that's most I shoot.   And after 10 yrs, cases still going strong.  No separation anywhere.
That sais, the 7 x 57 will be seriously overbore with BP, lots if fouling in a small hole...
  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2023 at 6:05pm
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Oct 1st, 2023 at 1:23pm:
Grumpy gumpy wrote on Sep 26th, 2023 at 6:45pm:
Black powder doesn’t like bottle neck cases, the smaller the bullet diameter, the less it likes them. It will hammer the shoulder of the case which will lessen the number of reloads before it separates at the shoulder, if you are lucky it will shoot the piece out of the barrel, or you’ll end up having to put a brush down to clear it
Gumpy

Now that one is for fairyland.  No issues with BN cases and BP, in fact that's most I shoot.   And after 10 yrs, cases still going strong.  No separation anywhere.
That sais, the 7 x 57 will be seriously overbore with BP, lots if fouling in a small hole...

It’s not fairyland, I know you just don’t like being corrected. Bottle necked cases do get hammered in the shoulder, they do separate there,  I've got several siting on my shelf that have done it. Some mine some other people’s, if you look at the design of bp bottle neck cases the shoulder is long and sloped for a reason, the 577/450 or the 450/400 2 3/8 are both good examples. Without actually trying it,  I would estimate five or six reloads in a 7x57 before he started to loose cases
Gumpy
« Last Edit: Oct 2nd, 2023 at 11:03pm by Grumpy gumpy »  
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2023 at 7:57pm
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To the OP, no. Now go wonder about something else:-).
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #9 - Oct 3rd, 2023 at 9:34am
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I suggest you take good look at a fired 577-450 case, that is NOT a gently sloped shoulder.  The shoulder angle is at least as steep if not steeper than many smokeless cases.
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #10 - Oct 3rd, 2023 at 12:53pm
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Thanks for all the replies.  I do not see where it will hurt the rifle to try it and may just for my own curiosity.  I know I would have to clean between shots to have a chance of accuracy.  Will try it when I get the chance.  Charlie
  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #11 - Oct 3rd, 2023 at 5:03pm
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Oct 3rd, 2023 at 9:34am:
I suggest you take good look at a fired 577-450 case, that is NOT a gently sloped shoulder.  The shoulder angle is at least as steep if not steeper than many smokeless cases.


Really...mine are....and the ones I used to reload for a friend years ago, still have a couple here waiting to be collected 
Gumpy
  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #12 - Oct 3rd, 2023 at 8:51pm
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I should add, a gentle curving shoulder is not the same as a sharp shoulder on the 7x57, the calibre in relation to the case size also plays a big part in the pressure shock against the shoulder 
Gumpy
  
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beltfed
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #13 - Oct 3rd, 2023 at 9:50pm
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I can tell you all that I have shot  compressed loads of BP in my 577/450 Martini and in both the 303 Brit and the 30 USA (30-40K).  No real problems arose. I had started with loads that filled the cases to the base of neck thru a 24" drop tube. 
Then ran a set where I filled the cases to the case mouth and then compressed down to the base of the neck.  
Again, no problems
Best to do this with Swiss powder which likes no or a little compression.
beltfed/arnie

  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: 7x57 with black powder
Reply #14 - Oct 4th, 2023 at 3:36am
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beltfed wrote on Oct 3rd, 2023 at 9:50pm:
I can tell you all that I have shot  compressed loads of BP in my 577/450 Martini and in both the 303 Brit and the 30 USA (30-40K).  No real problems arose. I had started with loads that filled the cases to the base of neck thru a 24" drop tube. 
Then ran a set where I filled the cases to the case mouth and then compressed down to the base of the neck.  
Again, no problems
Best to do this with Swiss powder which likes no or a little compression.
beltfed/arnie


That’s intriguing as the 303 British is one of the cartridges known for shoulder and head separations, mostly due to sloppy military chambers. A friend designed the 8x40 nickal to use those cases that had shoulder separation or neck splits, on a martini cadet action , of coarse. 
Gumpy 
  
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