It seems that very few people these days load and shoot the .25-25 Stevens. I recently joined the ranks with acquisition of the Stevens model 44 discussed here:

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I posted some initial loading tests in that thread. But rather than muddy the waters, I thought it a good idea to start a discussion here in the reloading forum focusing on loading and shooting it. This should make it easier for others to find this discussion in a future search.

To recap and kick it off, here are my first loads:

I tested a few loads, all with the same 72.5gr, 30-1 plain base bullet from an Arsenal mold and CCI 450 primers.

16.0gr of Blackhorn 209 - 1846fps avg.

22.0gr of APP 2F - 1932fps avg.

Duplex load 2.3gr if 2400 under 22.0gr Schuetzen 2F - 1645fps avg.

A single round of 11.0gr of Reloader 7 - 1556fps.

I think this bullet is too soft and light, but its all I had. I have since ordered some 85gr bullets from the Bullshop to try out. I'm using old UMC brass, but also ordered 40 pieces of brass from RMC. To my surprise, they had it on the shelf ready to ship 

More to follow!

I have had your bullets cast for a couple days. I am waiting on the note with your payment so I know at what diameter you want them sized otherwise they would have been ready to ship.
Look like a long one there.  I will be interested to hear how they did with black horn powder.  That brings up another point of weather you want your bullets lubed for black powder or for smokeless powder.

Ping for later.

You must live right.  Or you ordered before I did.

Check your neck wall thickness.  In the past I've found a couple of RMC .25-20 cases that were paper-thin on one side.

Your new brass looks good. I’m most curious as to what you come up with for smokeless loads.
While I don’t have a .25-25, I do have a.25-21.

FWIW, I checked case mouth expansion on one of the UMC cases I fired and it was minimal, maybe .003" at most. Very pleased with that.

I was expecting your payment today but it has not arrived yet.  To expedite this to your project please let me know the mailing address for the bullets and I will get them shipped.  If the payment is lost in the USPS void we will work that out later. I want to get these to you because I am anxious to follow your progress.

The Missus got them labeled and is headed for the PO with them no

In a Stevens you should be able to breech seat with a plugged case, and not be concerned about neck expansion. If not, expanding a total .003 would not be a major concern, unless the brass is extremely brittle, then annealing might be in order. ,Just a suggestion and dependent on neck thickness and bullet diameter., and brass hardness. Hopefully doable for you both.

Breech seating is a distinct possibility.  I can easily make a dummy on the lathe, so I won't have to sacrifice one of these rare cases.

rkba2nd wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 1:22pm:


Well, there's only the one piece of UMC brass, and I make tong tool muzzle resizers myself, using 310 decapper bodies.  That is in fact next on the agenda here.  But thanks for the tip - it may help someone else.

Here's some loads I tried:

Bertram cases, Ideal 25720 clone 85 gr.  10 gr XMP-5744, WWSRP 1-1/4", 1482ft/sec; same powder&bullet, CCI Mag SRP 1-3/4", 1470 ft/sec.  50 yds.

100 yd CCI SRP 10.5 gr XMP-5744 3"@100 yds, 1599ft/sec.

12 gr IMR-4198 5-1/4"@100yd, 1648ft/sec.

CCI Mag SRP, Rem 87gr JFP, 12.5gr IMR-4198, 1-1/8"@100 yds.

IMR-4198 12.5 gr with Fed SPP, 257464GC, 2-5/8"@100 yd.

CCI Mag SRP, 11.0 gr VV-N-133, 257464GC Sized 0.258" and weighed, 3-3/8"@100yd.

(That session I got up to 16 gr, giving 2040ft/sec and a flyer through my Chrony.  You can tell when a rifle/caliber really hates you.)

CCI SRMP, 15 gr Reloder 7 Rem 87gr JFP, 1-1/4" vert string @ 100 yd.  Other groups 2-5/8" range with same load.

CCI SRMP, 18 gr VV-N-133, Rem 87gr JFP 1-1/8"@50 yd.  2540ft/sec.

Put a throating reamer into the chamber and turned until the "bumps" stopped being felt.  Bertram and UMC cases, CCI SRMP, 17.0 gr VV-N-133, Rem 87gr JSP seated way out.  1-1/4", 3-1/4"(4 in 1-1/4") 2-1/4" (4 in 1-1/4") 1-7/8” (4 in 1").  100yd.

Bertram brass, new throat, CCI SRMP, 12.5gr IMR-4198, 100gr Cramer #55.  3" and 1-1/2" (4 in 3/4") 100 yds.  1613 ft/sec.

Redid above: 3", 2-3/4", 2-3/4" 3-1/8".

Bertram brass CCI SRMP, 10 gr XMP-5744, Kapok tuft, RCBS 87 gr tumble lubed 2" to 5-1/5" @100yds.

RMC cases, misc primers, 25 gr Swiss 1-1/2grease cookie between card wads, 100gr paper patched. Keyholes, tips and scattered 100 yd.

25gr olde Eynsford 1-1/2, 90gr 25720 90 gr 0.258" Lyman BP Gold, Rem 9-1/2, CCI-400 and CCI-450 5-1/2" to 8-1/2" verticals @ 50 yds.

Same powder & bullet, 50 yds Rem 7-1/2 BRP OE 1-1/2, 26 gr 4 in 5-1/4"; 28 gr 9-1/2" (4 in 5-1/2"); 30 gr 6-1/4".

CCI SRP best 26 gr 3", CCI-450 SRMP best 30 gr 4-1/4".

Fire lapped the barrel 60 shots.  Before lapping, CCI SRP 12.4 gr 4198, 257464 sized 0.260" 3-3/8"@50 yds.  After lapping, 6 shots in 2-5/8" @ 100 yd.

Did above over, 3 groups @ 100 yds.  6 in 2-3/4", 5 in 2-3/4" (4 in 1-1/8") and 5 in 1-1/8".

Throating and fire lapping seemed to help, but I ran out of steam.  No further development since mid 2020.

Haven't retried the blistering velocities with jacketed bullets after the barrel treatments.  This is a Low Wall, relined by Redman, chambered by me.

I chambered three more Redman .25 caliber relines in .25-20 SS&WCF and .25-21.  All can give 2-1/4" groups @ 100 with no particular trouble.  Some do better.

Most Bertram cases are different lengths&heads and all are too short.  Doesn't help accuracy much.

In my 25-21(sorry wrong cartridge) I was  having problems with loaded neck diameter and basically no throat. Decided to try a .256” bullet based on some obscure reference to Stevens bullet size I can’t  easily find right now. Bore measured .257”

Made a world of difference.

ndnchf wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 9:59am:


Technically both.
First tried sizing down to .256” from .258, it showed promise, so had a mould made.

The other big indicator was a significant drop in lead left behind in the barrel.

For a company that prided itself on the quality of its' barrels, they sure weren't very good at holding groove diameters to a tolerance.

uscra112 wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 11:44am:


I've been meaning to do that - so I just did. I drove a .259" bullet in about 2" from the breech end. To my surprise it is .253" also. I was expecting to find it larger.

And you haven't even met Alice or the Mad Hatter yet!

bullshop wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:


They just arrived - thanks !

It may be that the employee who always seemed to have pulled the 0.257” barrels out of the bin to chamber for .25 Stevens Rimfire (causing the avalanche of comment on how 0.252” for the rimfire diameter is a “myth”), finally ran out of 0.258” bores and had to put a rimfire bore barrel into service for a centerfire.

Or maybe it was the guy on the rifling machine, totally hypnotized by the back-and-forth motion, who pulled whatever sized reamed blank out of the cart for the next setup.

At one of my jobs, a boring industrial magazine called Package Engineering circulated through the offices.  The things those guys could do with a sheet of plastic, paper or cardboard was nothing short of marvelous sometimes.

But, alas, the success of the actual package didn’t depend on the genius of the designer.  It depended on the cretin at the end of the package line, with his bag sealer or glue pot and utter lack of interest in the job.

In cartridge/rifle combination that I am concerned with pressure, I always use Remington 1 1/2.

The reason is that they are probably the softest, thinnest  cups on the market. There are specific warnings on the box not to use on high pressure loads. 40 S&W, 357 and such.

You get very early warnings with flattened primers. It’s not much of an indicator, but it’s something. They are pretty flat and will flow into a loose firing pin hole as low as 20,000 psi. I don’t trust them over about 32-35,000 in a modern pistol. It’s like they never updated them from the Blackpowder days. REM 2 1/2 seem to also be a holdover. 

They do seem to have very good ignition with most powders.

Two thoughts that popped into my head when I read your post. First about the Primers.  Normally when starting to develop a load for smallish small bore case I start the process with SP primers.  In your case with such a long case and powder column standard SP primers may prove inadequate.  That is a long powder column for that spark to have to penetrate. What I suspect is a primer with the longest flame duration is what will work best and that likely means a magnum primer. I believe the longer flame duration is what will be needed to get good ignition uniformity in that long case.
  The other thought that popped into my head was what you said about case neck tension when sizing bullets smaller than standard.  If it becomes a problem what I would do simply because I have them is to slightly neck size your brass in a 25 ACP sizer die and carbide would be better but not necessary.  If you already have a bushing die for your 25-25 then no problem just add the correct bushing to your loading kit.
I will also mention that I have successively sized down bullets as much as you now need to and had very good performance with those bullets but those were sized in steps of about .002" increments.  Sizing down several thousandth's in one step seems to not work as good.  Sizing in small increments seems to eliminate bullet base finning and sizing nose first keeps things far more concentric than sizing base first.   
A regular lube sizer can be used to size nose first in a separate operation from lubing.  I can explain how if you wish.

BS - Thanks for your thoughts, and yes I agree about use of magnum primers with partially filled long cases. 

I have been using a carbide .25 acp sizer for my .25 Stevens cartridges and can use it for this too. I don't want to work this pricey brass any more than necessary, but frequent annealing will mitigate that concern to a good extent. I also make my own neck size bushings for use in Lee universal expander die bodies. I have no use for the internal flaring parts that come with these dies, but the bodies are wonderful for a variety of uses. So if the .25 acp die isn't quite right, I'll make a bushing to suit.

I've ordered NOE bullet sizing bushings in .001" increments down to .254", so I can sneak up on the needed size without drama. The lube grooves will be reduced, but the addition of a light coat of JPW/Alox tumble lube should offset the loss.

Paper patching these little guys could be a challenge with my aging fingers and eyes, but its worth the effort to try out the concept.
Steve

Back from the range.

First firing of the RMC brass and 85gr, .257" diameter Winchester bullets. Nothing spectacular, but I'm pleased for the first time out with them.  I tried 10.5 gr of Reloader 7 which gave 1504fps avg. 11.0gr gave 1617 fps avg. No signs of excess pressure. No visible signs of leading, but I haven't cleaned it yet.

When I did my part, both were good for about 1.5" at 50 yards. Not great, but better than the last time. Next time I'll size the bullets down a bit. 

Great fun, but much more work remains.

I got 10 rounds loaded with the .2545" sized bullets and 10.2gr of H4198 in RMC cases and CCI SRM primers. 

I had to get a little creative to neck size them. I found a .25ACP carbide sizer was just right to give good neck tension. I made a spacer bushing that slides over the case. It allows just the neck to enter the  25ACP die. It worked great. Then the bullets were seated as described previously using another spacer bushing and a .25-20WCF seater die. I do have a proper set of .25-25 dies coming, but my cobbled together set up seems to work quite well.

CharleHunter wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 8:24pm:


Freakish - yes. Useless - well, there certainly are others that will do the same thing, but I wouldn't call it useless.  I too looked at his book and was surprised to see it included with limited load data. I do enjoy the challenge of getting the odd and unusual ones shooting again.

Last week I made a few spacers which, combined with a .277" drill bushing from McMaster, and inserted into a medium length decapper die body, make an effective muzzle resizer for the Lyman tong tool.  The .277" bushing sizes the thin-walled RMC brass perfectly for a .258 bullet.   Also pressed a sleeve onto a broken decapper stem and turned it into a .258 expander, just because.  The spacer lengths are such that by rearranging them the tool will also do .25-21 and .25-20.

Yes, it's fun to make these "useless" old cartridges (and tools) work again.  

For the .25 short, if you could open the crimp on these .27 cal nail gun blanks, you might be able to add a bullet. They are close to the perfect size.

calledflyer wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 1:25pm:


When I first got my.25 Stevens #4 rolling block I experimented with breech seating with a noise blank, as well as cases made from .17 WSM and .22 Hornet. Here is a short video about it. 

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Its been a while since I made an update. I've been off to a reunion in Illinois and busy with my other hobby - antique cars.

Tonight I cleaned and adjusted the CH4D .25-25 dies bought from a member here. I've been able to load without them, but these do make it easier. I'm neck sizing just enough for a little neck tension.

A couple weeks ago I sized the bullets down to .254" (actual size .2455" with springback. These were loaded with 10.2gr of H4198. Tonight I loaded 10 more, but sized them .001" larger - .2555".  When the rain lets up and it dries a bit, I hope to get to the range,  early next week I hope.

Excellent work!  You certainly have made progress in your quest.
Congratulations !

it's the bow tie that makes the system work

I'm curious what your bore/groove size is too. I was quite surprised about mine, but I'm getting it dialed in.

Steve,
It will be fun to see how she shoots!
Bob

Finding a smokeless powder that burns effeciently, fills the case reasonably well while keeping velocity around or below 1500fps is a challenge.  My three powders of choice are H4198, Reloader 7 and Blackhorn 209.

The photo shows the powder column height with three loads, all with a 84.5gr bullet. H4198 with 10.2gr for 1327fps, RL7 with 10.5gr for 1504fps and BH209 with 13.0gr for 1434fps. I'm going to up the H4188 to 10.5gr. That should boost it up over 1400gps.

BH209 is clearly the leader in case filling capacity and it is very accurate. But it is also very pricey.

I've noticed that even small increases in powder weight can dramatically increase velocity.

Steve,

I plan on reloading 25-25 for my Remington-Hepburn. Brass and bullets are inbound.

Since I have the necessary cobbled together die set for reloading (25 ACP sizer and 25-20 WCF), I am curious about the length of your bushings. What is the length of the two bushings? There is not a good reference point in your photos for me to determine the length.

Great and insightful thread.
paul....

Buffalo Arms listed Bertram brass as in stock. Called to place the order and it was out of stock. So I bit the bullet and bought the BP loaded ammo.

Still cheaper than ordering a supply from Down Under. 

Thanks.

paul....

ndnchf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

 
Do you also have a branch of nettles to go with it for Self-flagellation?












?

Kidding aside you have done lovers of old rifles a tremendous service in making the videos of how to get these old rifles shooting again.  I appreciate it when someone else does all the work and I get the benefit.  I know it is a labor of love for you but wanted to take the time to thank you!

ndnchf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2023 at 5:31am:

Thanks

All the activity on this thread inspired me to take my .25-25 out after 3 years of non-use.  (Also, it was a dead calm morning and the Range is closed tomorrow for Thanksgiving.)

The load was Bertram cases, Remington Bench Rest small rifle primers, 12.6 gr IMR-4198 and Ideal 257464, lino/wheelweight alloy, Alox-Beeswax lube, sized 0.259" with Lyman gas check.

The rifle is a collection of parts, cobbled together over the years, the shot-out round .32-20 barrel relined by Redman  to .25 caliber and chambered by yer humble narrator.  The load was the last one that seemed to show promise after all the canoodling I did on the rifle a couple years ago.  First 5-shot group at 50 yards was an uninspiring 4-3/4", but it contained an encouraging vertical cluster of 3 in 7/8".  (For some reason, the pic is turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.)

I then moved to 100yards and got 4-1/4" (3 in 3/4"), and a mystery group of four in 4" with one gone into a wormhole somewhere.

The last five rounds I clutched the rifle in a death grip, pulling the stock hard to shoulder and cheek and holding reasonably hard on the forend.  Looks like that is the charm; a 1-1/4" group resulted.

So far, I don't seem to get anything from this caliber, accuracy or powerwise, that I wasn't able to get with much less effort from the .25-21 or .25-20SS.  But, all's well that ends well.

I have not been to the range with mine in a few months, so don't have any more to add. I've already posted about my progress to date. What I've found is that with smokeless, filling that case volume enough for consistent ignition without getting excessive velocity is a fine balance.  Very small changes in powder can make a big difference in velocity. This thread has some good info to get you started.

As a point of reference, I tried 22.0gr of Schuetzen 2F black over 2.3gr of 2400. This was with a 72 5gr bullet and CCI 450 primers. This gave me an average of 1645fps. I also tried 22.0gr of 2F APP. This gave a whopping 1932fps. 16.0gr og BH209 gave 1846fps.

As you can see, it is very easy to exceed original velocity using BP subs.

I finally got back to the range for a brief session with the #2 rolling block. This is only at 35 yards, so it doesnt mean much. The H4198 load showed the most promise. It was the first string fired. The first round in a clean, oiled barrel went a little high, just above the top edge of the target. Then the remaining 4 grouped nicely. Next time I'll move out to 50 yards.