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ndnchf
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Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
May 21st, 2023 at 6:06am
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It seems that very few people these days load and shoot the .25-25 Stevens. I recently joined the ranks with acquisition of the Stevens model 44 discussed here:

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I posted some initial loading tests in that thread. But rather than muddy the waters, I thought it a good idea to start a discussion here in the reloading forum focusing on loading and shooting it. This should make it easier for others to find this discussion in a future search.

To recap and kick it off, here are my first loads:

I tested a few loads, all with the same 72.5gr, 30-1 plain base bullet from an Arsenal mold and CCI 450 primers.

16.0gr of Blackhorn 209 - 1846fps avg.

22.0gr of APP 2F - 1932fps avg.

Duplex load 2.3gr if 2400 under 22.0gr Schuetzen 2F - 1645fps avg.

A single round of 11.0gr of Reloader 7 - 1556fps.

I think this bullet is too soft and light, but its all I had. I have since ordered some 85gr bullets from the Bullshop to try out. I'm using old UMC brass, but also ordered 40 pieces of brass from RMC. To my surprise, they had it on the shelf ready to ship  Smiley

More to follow!
  
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ndnchf
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #1 - May 21st, 2023 at 10:14am
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Geez, this is spooky. I just got a notification from Buffalo Arms that loaded .25-25 ammunition is back in stock  Cheesy

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #2 - May 21st, 2023 at 4:09pm
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I have had your bullets cast for a couple days. I am waiting on the note with your payment so I know at what diameter you want them sized otherwise they would have been ready to ship.
Look like a long one there.  I will be interested to hear how they did with black horn powder.  That brings up another point of weather you want your bullets lubed for black powder or for smokeless powder.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #3 - May 21st, 2023 at 4:22pm
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bullshop wrote on May 21st, 2023 at 4:09pm:
I have had your bullets cast for a couple days. I am waiting on the note with your payment so I know at what diameter you want them sized otherwise they would have been ready to ship.
Look like a long one there.  I will be interested to hear how they did with black horn powder.  That brings up another point of weather you want your bullets lubed for black powder or for smokeless powder.


As they say "Check's in the mail"  Smiley  This rifle has a tight bore, so .257" will be fine. I'll mostly be shooting smokeless, so maybe half smokeless lube, half for black powder. If that is too much trouble, then all smokeless lube is fine. Thanks.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #4 - May 21st, 2023 at 8:37pm
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Ping for later.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #5 - May 22nd, 2023 at 3:53pm
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40 pieces of brass just arrived from RMC 😀
  
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uscra112
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #6 - May 22nd, 2023 at 4:13pm
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You must live right.  Or you ordered before I did.

Check your neck wall thickness.  In the past I've found a couple of RMC .25-20 cases that were paper-thin on one side.
  

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ndnchf
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #7 - May 22nd, 2023 at 5:20pm
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I just checked them. The wall thickness look consistent and a sample chambers fine. The case mouths need a little attention, but nothing serious. Just clean up and chamfering. Overall they look great.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #8 - May 22nd, 2023 at 5:44pm
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Your new brass looks good. I’m most curious as to what you come up with for smokeless loads.
While I don’t have a .25-25, I do have a.25-21.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #9 - May 22nd, 2023 at 5:45pm
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Click-n-Ship reports that mine are out in the mailbox.  Will take the 4-wheeler down there later.  Want to load and fire one ASAP to see how the neck expands, and how the expanded neck responds to my .257 Roberts muzzle resizer.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2023 at 5:49pm
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FWIW, I checked case mouth expansion on one of the UMC cases I fired and it was minimal, maybe .003" at most. Very pleased with that.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2023 at 5:55pm
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Well, .003 would necessitate using the muzzle resizer.  I'm hoping I can get away without needing to expand after sizing.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #12 - May 23rd, 2023 at 12:44pm
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I was expecting your payment today but it has not arrived yet.  To expedite this to your project please let me know the mailing address for the bullets and I will get them shipped.  If the payment is lost in the USPS void we will work that out later. I want to get these to you because I am anxious to follow your progress.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #13 - May 23rd, 2023 at 1:15pm
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bullshop wrote on May 23rd, 2023 at 12:44pm:
I was expecting your payment today but it has not arrived yet.  To expedite this to your project please let me know the mailing address for the bullets and I will get them shipped.  If the payment is lost in the USPS void we will work that out later. I want to get these to you because I am anxious to follow your progress.


I appreciate that. The pony express seems to be slow  Undecided  I just replied to your email.

Steve
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #14 - May 23rd, 2023 at 1:43pm
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The Missus got them labeled and is headed for the PO with them no
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #15 - May 24th, 2023 at 12:15pm
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Here's a disappointment:  My one UMC case has neck wall thickness of about .013". My 257 Roberts muzzle resizer sizes it perfectly for a .258" bullet.  The RMC cases are .009", and it cannot reduce the I.D. enough.  Sad   Will have to make one after all.   

So for now will have to use my .25-20 SS dies to neck size and expand.  Tong tool will decap/recap and seat.

Also going to have to bush the firing pin hole. Getting significant primer flow there.  Will delay real testing for a while.   

  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #16 - May 24th, 2023 at 1:07pm
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In a Stevens you should be able to breech seat with a plugged case, and not be concerned about neck expansion. If not, expanding a total .003 would not be a major concern, unless the brass is extremely brittle, then annealing might be in order. ,Just a suggestion and dependent on neck thickness and bullet diameter., and brass hardness. Hopefully doable for you both.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #17 - May 24th, 2023 at 1:22pm
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uscra112 Have you thought of outside neck turning the UMC brass and opening the die neck to accept bushings to reduce neck sizing the necks the necessary amount for clearance. There is a gentleman in Iowa that will do that for a minimal charge. His name is Jim Carstensen (563)689-6258
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #18 - May 24th, 2023 at 1:36pm
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Breech seating is a distinct possibility.  I can easily make a dummy on the lathe, so I won't have to sacrifice one of these rare cases.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #19 - May 24th, 2023 at 1:40pm
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Nothing is easy  Undecided
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2023 at 1:48pm
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rkba2nd wrote on May 24th, 2023 at 1:22pm:
uscra112 Have you thought of outside neck turning the UMC brass and opening the die neck to accept bushings to reduce neck sizing the necks the necessary amount for clearance. There is a gentleman in Iowa that will do that for a minimal charge. His name is Jim Carstensen (563)689-6258 


Well, there's only the one piece of UMC brass, and I make tong tool muzzle resizers myself, using 310 decapper bodies.  That is in fact next on the agenda here.  But thanks for the tip - it may help someone else.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2023 at 4:53pm
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Glad you have things under control.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2023 at 5:37pm
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Here's some loads I tried:

Bertram cases, Ideal 25720 clone 85 gr.  10 gr XMP-5744, WWSRP 1-1/4", 1482ft/sec; same powder&bullet, CCI Mag SRP 1-3/4", 1470 ft/sec.  50 yds.

100 yd CCI SRP 10.5 gr XMP-5744 3"@100 yds, 1599ft/sec.

12 gr IMR-4198 5-1/4"@100yd, 1648ft/sec.

CCI Mag SRP, Rem 87gr JFP, 12.5gr IMR-4198, 1-1/8"@100 yds.

IMR-4198 12.5 gr with Fed SPP, 257464GC, 2-5/8"@100 yd.

CCI Mag SRP, 11.0 gr VV-N-133, 257464GC Sized 0.258" and weighed, 3-3/8"@100yd.

(That session I got up to 16 gr, giving 2040ft/sec and a flyer through my Chrony.  You can tell when a rifle/caliber really hates you.)

CCI SRMP, 15 gr Reloder 7 Rem 87gr JFP, 1-1/4" vert string @ 100 yd.  Other groups 2-5/8" range with same load.

CCI SRMP, 18 gr VV-N-133, Rem 87gr JFP 1-1/8"@50 yd.  2540ft/sec.

Put a throating reamer into the chamber and turned until the "bumps" stopped being felt.  Bertram and UMC cases, CCI SRMP, 17.0 gr VV-N-133, Rem 87gr JSP seated way out.  1-1/4", 3-1/4"(4 in 1-1/4") 2-1/4" (4 in 1-1/4") 1-7/8” (4 in 1").  100yd.

Bertram brass, new throat, CCI SRMP, 12.5gr IMR-4198, 100gr Cramer #55.  3" and 1-1/2" (4 in 3/4") 100 yds.  1613 ft/sec.

Redid above: 3", 2-3/4", 2-3/4" 3-1/8".

Bertram brass CCI SRMP, 10 gr XMP-5744, Kapok tuft, RCBS 87 gr tumble lubed 2" to 5-1/5" @100yds.

RMC cases, misc primers, 25 gr Swiss 1-1/2grease cookie between card wads, 100gr paper patched. Keyholes, tips and scattered 100 yd.

25gr olde Eynsford 1-1/2, 90gr 25720 90 gr 0.258" Lyman BP Gold, Rem 9-1/2, CCI-400 and CCI-450 5-1/2" to 8-1/2" verticals @ 50 yds.

Same powder & bullet, 50 yds Rem 7-1/2 BRP OE 1-1/2, 26 gr 4 in 5-1/4"; 28 gr 9-1/2" (4 in 5-1/2"); 30 gr 6-1/4".

CCI SRP best 26 gr 3", CCI-450 SRMP best 30 gr 4-1/4".

Fire lapped the barrel 60 shots.  Before lapping, CCI SRP 12.4 gr 4198, 257464 sized 0.260" 3-3/8"@50 yds.  After lapping, 6 shots in 2-5/8" @ 100 yd.

Did above over, 3 groups @ 100 yds.  6 in 2-3/4", 5 in 2-3/4" (4 in 1-1/8") and 5 in 1-1/8".

Throating and fire lapping seemed to help, but I ran out of steam.  No further development since mid 2020.

Haven't retried the blistering velocities with jacketed bullets after the barrel treatments.  This is a Low Wall, relined by Redman, chambered by me.

I chambered three more Redman .25 caliber relines in .25-20 SS&WCF and .25-21.  All can give 2-1/4" groups @ 100 with no particular trouble.  Some do better.

Most Bertram cases are different lengths&heads and all are too short.  Doesn't help accuracy much.
« Last Edit: May 27th, 2023 at 5:01pm by Bent_Ramrod »  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #23 - May 24th, 2023 at 5:58pm
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BR - Wow, what a treasure trove of data. Thanks for sharing  Cheesy
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #24 - May 25th, 2023 at 9:21am
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In my 25-21(sorry wrong cartridge) I was  having problems with loaded neck diameter and basically no throat. Decided to try a .256” bullet based on some obscure reference to Stevens bullet size I can’t  easily find right now. Bore measured .257”

Made a world of difference.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #25 - May 25th, 2023 at 9:59am
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Dellet wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 9:21am:
In my 25-21(sorry wrong cartridge) I was  having problems with loaded neck diameter and basically no throat. Decided to try a .256” bullet based on some obscure reference to Stevens bullet size I can’t  easily find right now. Bore measured .257”

Made a world of difference.


With my .253" groove size at the muzzle, I've wondered about an undersize bullet.  Do you have a mold that drops at .256" or make a .256" sizing die?
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #26 - May 25th, 2023 at 10:08am
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ndnchf wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 9:59am:
Dellet wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 9:21am:
In my 25-21(sorry wrong cartridge) I was  having problems with loaded neck diameter and basically no throat. Decided to try a .256” bullet based on some obscure reference to Stevens bullet size I can’t  easily find right now. Bore measured .257”

Made a world of difference.


With my .253" groove size at the muzzle, I've wondered about an undersize bullet.  Do you have a mold that drops at .256" or make a .256" sizing die?


Technically both.
First tried sizing down to .256” from .258, it showed promise, so had a mould made.

The other big indicator was a significant drop in lead left behind in the barrel.


  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #27 - May 25th, 2023 at 10:35am
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Good to know , thanks.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #28 - May 25th, 2023 at 10:38am
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For a company that prided itself on the quality of its' barrels, they sure weren't very good at holding groove diameters to a tolerance.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #29 - May 25th, 2023 at 11:44am
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Steve - it would be very interesting to know your groove diameter at the rear of the bore.  A trick I use now is to load an oversize bullet ahead of an extremely light charge of powder, deliberately making it to stop in the bore, then driving it back out through the breech end.   About 0.5 grains of Bullseye was right in mine. (I used as much as 2 grains testing a .303 Savage.) Hold the rifle vertical to assure the tiny charge actually ignites.*

Mine registered .258" about 8 inches ahead of the chamber

*It might not be politic to be seen doing this if you are in a crowded suburb.  My closest neighbor is 800 yards away.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #30 - May 25th, 2023 at 1:04pm
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uscra112 wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 11:44am:
Steve - it would be very interesting to know your groove diameter at the rear of the bore.  A trick I use now is to load an oversize bullet ahead of an extremely light charge of powder, deliberately making it to stop in the bore, then driving it back out through the breech end.   About 0.5 grains of Bullseye was right in mine. (I used as much as 2 grains testing a .303 Savage.) Hold the rifle vertical to assure the tiny charge actually ignites.*

Mine registered .258" about 8 inches ahead of the chamber

*It might not be politic to be seen doing this if you are in a crowded suburb.  My closest neighbor is 800 yards away. 


I've been meaning to do that - so I just did. I drove a .259" bullet in about 2" from the breech end. To my surprise it is .253" also. I was expecting to find it larger.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #31 - May 25th, 2023 at 1:10pm
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Looks like I'm going to need a custom mold  Embarrassed   This rifle is getting to be a very expensive rabbit hole!
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #32 - May 25th, 2023 at 1:13pm
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And you haven't even met Alice or the Mad Hatter yet!
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #33 - May 25th, 2023 at 2:09pm
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Received your payment today.  Bullets left here a couple days age so should be there soon.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #34 - May 25th, 2023 at 2:33pm
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bullshop wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 2:09pm:
Received your payment today.  Bullets left here a couple days age so should be there soon.


They just arrived - thanks !
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #35 - May 25th, 2023 at 4:13pm
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I loaded 10 rounds of new RMC brass with Bullshop's beautiful 84.5gr Winchester bullets sized .257". Of course I now know these are quite oversize for my .253" groove size barrel. I don't want to shoot a lot of these as I expect some leading and high pressure. 

Five rounds are loaded with 11.0gr of Reloader 7 (RL7). The other five loaded with 10.5gr if RL7. The black sharpie indicated height of the powder column and base of the bullet. 

I got on NOE's web site and ordered bullet sizer bushings in .254",  255", .256" and .257". I don't like sizing bullets more than a couple thou, but I'll have to make an exception here. I'll incrementally size some down to .255" and .254" and try them. Neck tension, or lack there of will likely be an issue. I'll need to find a happy medium.

What do you think about primers? I have a few hundred CCI 450 small rifle magnums, which is what I used with these. I have a better supply of small pistol primers too. How do you feel about using these?

Steve
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #36 - May 25th, 2023 at 6:27pm
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It may be that the employee who always seemed to have pulled the 0.257” barrels out of the bin to chamber for .25 Stevens Rimfire (causing the avalanche of comment on how 0.252” for the rimfire diameter is a “myth”), finally ran out of 0.258” bores and had to put a rimfire bore barrel into service for a centerfire.

Or maybe it was the guy on the rifling machine, totally hypnotized by the back-and-forth motion, who pulled whatever sized reamed blank out of the cart for the next setup.

At one of my jobs, a boring industrial magazine called Package Engineering circulated through the offices.  The things those guys could do with a sheet of plastic, paper or cardboard was nothing short of marvelous sometimes.

But, alas, the success of the actual package didn’t depend on the genius of the designer.  It depended on the cretin at the end of the package line, with his bag sealer or glue pot and utter lack of interest in the job.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #37 - May 25th, 2023 at 6:30pm
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I'm off work tomorrow and the weather looks good. So I'm going to the gun club in the morning. Since I have the time, the whole .25 cal family is going and will get some exercise over the chrono.  Top to bottom:
.25-25 Stevens, model 44
.25-20 SS #2 roller
.25 Stevens rimfire #2 roller
25 Stevens centerfire #4 roller

  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #38 - May 25th, 2023 at 7:03pm
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In cartridge/rifle combination that I am concerned with pressure, I always use Remington 1 1/2.

The reason is that they are probably the softest, thinnest  cups on the market. There are specific warnings on the box not to use on high pressure loads. 40 S&W, 357 and such.

You get very early warnings with flattened primers. It’s not much of an indicator, but it’s something. They are pretty flat and will flow into a loose firing pin hole as low as 20,000 psi. I don’t trust them over about 32-35,000 in a modern pistol. It’s like they never updated them from the Blackpowder days. REM 2 1/2 seem to also be a holdover. 

They do seem to have very good ignition with most powders.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #39 - May 25th, 2023 at 9:22pm
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Brainstorming ideas to deal with my undersize bore. How about paper patching readily available 6mm/.245" diameter bullet up to .253"?  They come in 85-85gr range.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #40 - May 25th, 2023 at 10:14pm
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Two thoughts that popped into my head when I read your post. First about the Primers.  Normally when starting to develop a load for smallish small bore case I start the process with SP primers.  In your case with such a long case and powder column standard SP primers may prove inadequate.  That is a long powder column for that spark to have to penetrate. What I suspect is a primer with the longest flame duration is what will work best and that likely means a magnum primer. I believe the longer flame duration is what will be needed to get good ignition uniformity in that long case.
  The other thought that popped into my head was what you said about case neck tension when sizing bullets smaller than standard.  If it becomes a problem what I would do simply because I have them is to slightly neck size your brass in a 25 ACP sizer die and carbide would be better but not necessary.  If you already have a bushing die for your 25-25 then no problem just add the correct bushing to your loading kit.
I will also mention that I have successively sized down bullets as much as you now need to and had very good performance with those bullets but those were sized in steps of about .002" increments.  Sizing down several thousandth's in one step seems to not work as good.  Sizing in small increments seems to eliminate bullet base finning and sizing nose first keeps things far more concentric than sizing base first.   
A regular lube sizer can be used to size nose first in a separate operation from lubing.  I can explain how if you wish.
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2023 at 10:23pm by bullshop »  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #41 - May 25th, 2023 at 10:16pm
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ndnchf wrote on May 25th, 2023 at 9:22pm:
Brainstorming ideas to deal with my undersize bore. How about paper patching readily available 6mm/.245" diameter bullet up to .253"?  They come in 85-85gr range.


I can supply some of those cast soft if you wish.  I think yes its possible but cutting and rolling those tiny patches might be a challenge.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #42 - May 26th, 2023 at 4:14am
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BS - Thanks for your thoughts, and yes I agree about use of magnum primers with partially filled long cases. 

I have been using a carbide .25 acp sizer for my .25 Stevens cartridges and can use it for this too. I don't want to work this pricey brass any more than necessary, but frequent annealing will mitigate that concern to a good extent. I also make my own neck size bushings for use in Lee universal expander die bodies. I have no use for the internal flaring parts that come with these dies, but the bodies are wonderful for a variety of uses. So if the .25 acp die isn't quite right, I'll make a bushing to suit.

I've ordered NOE bullet sizing bushings in .001" increments down to .254", so I can sneak up on the needed size without drama. The lube grooves will be reduced, but the addition of a light coat of JPW/Alox tumble lube should offset the loss.

Paper patching these little guys could be a challenge with my aging fingers and eyes, but its worth the effort to try out the concept.
Steve
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #43 - May 26th, 2023 at 9:26am
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I was thinking to myself last night about what affect fire lapping might have to ease the loading of oversize bullets.  The idea I guess would be that to some degree the bullets would be funneled into the full depth rifling so the transition may be more gentil. 
Its one of those things though where there is no turning back. Still though if done slowly and checked often it could be an affective aid to chambering issues as well as being less damaging to bullets making the transition from case to barrel.
I have used JB bore paste in the lube grooves of pure lead bullets for fire lapping to not only take the sharp edge off new chambers throats but also to help smooth up roughness in the lead of neglected barrels.  I don't know if it might help or not but glad its not my decision to make.  Good luck !
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #44 - May 26th, 2023 at 11:35am
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Back from the range.

First firing of the RMC brass and 85gr, .257" diameter Winchester bullets. Nothing spectacular, but I'm pleased for the first time out with them.  I tried 10.5 gr of Reloader 7 which gave 1504fps avg. 11.0gr gave 1617 fps avg. No signs of excess pressure. No visible signs of leading, but I haven't cleaned it yet.

When I did my part, both were good for about 1.5" at 50 yards. Not great, but better than the last time. Next time I'll size the bullets down a bit. 

Great fun, but much more work remains.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #45 - May 30th, 2023 at 4:46pm
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The .254", .255", .256" and .257" NOE sizer  bushings came in today. So I took one of the 85gr, .257" diameter Winchester bullets and ran it through each down to .254". It come out about .2545" with springback. That is a reasonable compromise for my .253" groove barrel. The lube grooves are a little smaller. I may give them a light coat of my JPW/Alox tumble lube to make up for it. Bullet on the left is .257", in the right is .254".

I'll need to neck size the cases a little, but I think it is workable. 
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #46 - May 31st, 2023 at 6:54pm
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I got 10 rounds loaded with the .2545" sized bullets and 10.2gr of H4198 in RMC cases and CCI SRM primers. 

I had to get a little creative to neck size them. I found a .25ACP carbide sizer was just right to give good neck tension. I made a spacer bushing that slides over the case. It allows just the neck to enter the  25ACP die. It worked great. Then the bullets were seated as described previously using another spacer bushing and a .25-20WCF seater die. I do have a proper set of .25-25 dies coming, but my cobbled together set up seems to work quite well.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #47 - May 31st, 2023 at 8:24pm
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I have been following this discussion and decided to look up some reference material that I have. I found this quote in Phil Sharpes - Complete Guide to Reloading - which made me laugh.

"About as useless and freakish-looking a cartridge as was ever developed the 25/25 Stevens."

Really interesting forum thread by the way.
Steve in AUS
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #48 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 6:04am
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CharleHunter wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 8:24pm:
I have been following this discussion and decided to look up some reference material that I have. I found this quote in Phil Sharpes - Complete Guide to Reloading - which made me laugh.

"About as useless and freakish-looking a cartridge as was ever developed the 25/25 Stevens."

Really interesting forum thread by the way.
Steve in AUS


Freakish - yes. Useless - well, there certainly are others that will do the same thing, but I wouldn't call it useless.  I too looked at his book and was surprised to see it included with limited load data. I do enjoy the challenge of getting the odd and unusual ones shooting again.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #49 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 7:11am
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More than one gun manufacturer created cartridges that were intended to say "We do things that are new and innovative; give us a try!" but that proved less than sterling in actual use.  The .25-25 Stevens is generally considered such a cartridge.

That being said, Steve, you do always seem to be having a great deal of fun, which is so important, especially nowadays.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #50 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 7:47am
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Last week I made a few spacers which, combined with a .277" drill bushing from McMaster, and inserted into a medium length decapper die body, make an effective muzzle resizer for the Lyman tong tool.  The .277" bushing sizes the thin-walled RMC brass perfectly for a .258 bullet.   Also pressed a sleeve onto a broken decapper stem and turned it into a .258 expander, just because.  The spacer lengths are such that by rearranging them the tool will also do .25-21 and .25-20.

Yes, it's fun to make these "useless" old cartridges (and tools) work again.  
« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2023 at 8:21am by uscra112 »  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #51 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 10:22am
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MrTipUp wrote on Jun 1st, 2023 at 7:11am:
More than one gun manufacturer created cartridges that were intended to say "We do things that are new and innovative; give us a try!" but that proved less than sterling in actual use.  The .25-25 Stevens is generally considered such a cartridge.

That being said, Steve, you do always seem to be having a great deal of fun, which is so important, especially nowadays.

Bill Lawrence


I don’t know which is more useless, the 25-25 or the 25 short rimfire.

Then again I’ll probably end up owning one of each some day, so I have to watch what I say.

Thinking it through, the 25 short would be a lot easier to make brass for, and reaching velocity with smokeless powder should not be a problem, even with the short case. Gallery loads would be a no brainer.

Crap. Cheesy
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #52 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 10:47am
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For the .25 short, if you could open the crimp on these .27 cal nail gun blanks, you might be able to add a bullet. They are close to the perfect size.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #53 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 1:25pm
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breech set a bullet. may not even need to open up the cartridge case.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #54 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 4:19pm
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calledflyer wrote on Jun 1st, 2023 at 1:25pm:
breech set a bullet. may not even need to open up the cartridge case.


When I first got my.25 Stevens #4 rolling block I experimented with breech seating with a noise blank, as well as cases made from .17 WSM and .22 Hornet. Here is a short video about it. 

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #55 - Jun 1st, 2023 at 8:32pm
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Thank you, Steve. I had figured the gun for a shorter round than it turned out to be- I don't know much about them thar old-time rimfires. Anyhow, the video is interesting and enough for me to agree that the little rimfire blank isn't the answer in that rifle. Your homebrew from the hornet is the ticket.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #56 - Jun 22nd, 2023 at 7:05pm
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Its been a while since I made an update. I've been off to a reunion in Illinois and busy with my other hobby - antique cars.

Tonight I cleaned and adjusted the CH4D .25-25 dies bought from a member here. I've been able to load without them, but these do make it easier. I'm neck sizing just enough for a little neck tension.

A couple weeks ago I sized the bullets down to .254" (actual size .2455" with springback. These were loaded with 10.2gr of H4198. Tonight I loaded 10 more, but sized them .001" larger - .2555".  When the rain lets up and it dries a bit, I hope to get to the range,  early next week I hope.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #57 - Jun 28th, 2023 at 4:45pm
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I finally got to the gun club today. Got the chrono set up and shot 3 loads across it, target set at about 35 yards.

The first load was 10.2gr of H4198, 84 5gr Winchester bullet and CCI Smalk Rifle Magnum (SRM) primer, bullet sized .254" (actual size .2545"). Velocity average was 1315fps.

The second load was 10.2gr of H4198, 84 5gr Winchester bullet and CCI SRM primer, bullet sized .255" (actual size .2555"). Velocity average was 1327fps.   

With the above loads I wanted to see what difference bullet sizing made. The less I need the better. It didn't seem to make a noticable difference here. 

The last load was 13.0gr of Blackhorn 209, 84 5gr Winchester bullet and CCI SRM primer, bullet sized .255" (actual size .2555"). Velocity average was 1434fps.  I wanted to try this powder because of its bulk. It shot well, but extraction was a little sticky. I might back it off .5gr next time.

I had one misfire I attribute to light hammer strike. Repositioning and a second try fired it. The primer indents do look light in general. I'll try  small pistol magnums next time.

Time to go anneal and clean this precious brass  Smiley

Steve
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #58 - Jul 16th, 2023 at 10:11am
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Excellent work!  You certainly have made progress in your quest.
Congratulations !
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #59 - Jul 16th, 2023 at 6:48pm
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bullshop wrote on Jul 16th, 2023 at 10:11am:
Excellent work!  You certainly have made progress in your quest.
Congratulations !


Thanks. I have a couple more loads to test. But between the rain and range closures for maintenance, I havent got back yet. I'll post an update when I do.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #60 - Jul 16th, 2023 at 8:54pm
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it's the bow tie that makes the system work
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #61 - Jul 18th, 2023 at 7:18am
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I was moving a lot of parts/projects to my new workshop last and came across my 25/25 barrel for my 44 1/2 and remembered I bought rmc brass for it several years back but moved on to other projects. 
Glad I opened this thread this morning. It motivates me and makes me realize I better slug the bore! I’d have never imagined a 253 in one of these! 
Thank you for this thread. It’s great information!
  

Great Plains Precision Rifle Club
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #62 - Jul 18th, 2023 at 7:46am
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I'm curious what your bore/groove size is too. I was quite surprised about mine, but I'm getting it dialed in.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #63 - Nov 3rd, 2023 at 5:36am
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I've been side tracked lately playing with my antique cars, work, vacation and rearranging my sock drawer Wink. But its time to get back to the .25-25. I'm invigorated by the return of my .25-25 #2 Remington sporting rifle. So I now have two .25-25 rifles to play with. Each needs its own ammunition due to the difference in groove size. The Stevens 44  has .253" grooves, while the #2 Remington has .257".   
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #64 - Nov 3rd, 2023 at 11:13am
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Steve,
It will be fun to see how she shoots!
Bob
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #65 - Nov 8th, 2023 at 5:27pm
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I made it to the range today and tried out the relined .25-25 #2 Remington sporting rifle for the first time. It was only 25 yards, but it functioned perfectly and shows good potential. Here's a video of the fun.

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #66 - Nov 14th, 2023 at 6:43pm
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Finding a smokeless powder that burns effeciently, fills the case reasonably well while keeping velocity around or below 1500fps is a challenge.  My three powders of choice are H4198, Reloader 7 and Blackhorn 209.

The photo shows the powder column height with three loads, all with a 84.5gr bullet. H4198 with 10.2gr for 1327fps, RL7 with 10.5gr for 1504fps and BH209 with 13.0gr for 1434fps. I'm going to up the H4188 to 10.5gr. That should boost it up over 1400gps.

BH209 is clearly the leader in case filling capacity and it is very accurate. But it is also very pricey.

I've noticed that even small increases in powder weight can dramatically increase velocity.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #67 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 1:13pm
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If anyone has a yearning to build a .25-25 Stevens, I just happen to have a nice PTG .25-25 reamer that I'd loan out  Smiley
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #68 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 4:22pm
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Steve,

I plan on reloading 25-25 for my Remington-Hepburn. Brass and bullets are inbound.

Since I have the necessary cobbled together die set for reloading (25 ACP sizer and 25-20 WCF), I am curious about the length of your bushings. What is the length of the two bushings? There is not a good reference point in your photos for me to determine the length.

Great and insightful thread.
paul....
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #69 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 5:13pm
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bigpaulespo wrote on Nov 17th, 2023 at 4:22pm:
Steve,

I plan on reloading 25-25 for my Remington-Hepburn. Brass and bullets are inbound.

Since I have the necessary cobbled together die set for reloading (25 ACP sizer and 25-20 WCF), I am curious about the length of your bushings. What is the length of the two bushings? There is not a good reference point in your photos for me to determine the length.

Great and insightful thread.
paul....


Congrats on the Hepburn, a great rifle. Where did you get the brass?  Have you slugged the bote? Im curious about the groove diameter and twist. I'm out right now, but will measure the bushings tomorrow.
Steve
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #70 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 5:59pm
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Buffalo Arms listed Bertram brass as in stock. Called to place the order and it was out of stock. So I bit the bullet and bought the BP loaded ammo.

Still cheaper than ordering a supply from Down Under.  Grin

Thanks.

paul....
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #71 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 6:12pm
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Good find. I have original UMC brass and new made from RMC. Both work well.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #72 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 7:41pm
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ndnchf wrote on Nov 17th, 2023 at 1:13pm:
If anyone has a yearning to build a .25-25 Stevens, I just happen to have a nice PTG .25-25 reamer that I'd loan out  Smiley

 
Do you also have a branch of nettles to go with it for Self-flagellation?












?
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #73 - Nov 18th, 2023 at 5:31am
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Paul - the bullet seater bushing is 1.150". The .25 acp neck sizer bushing is 1.850".

Charlie - they are on my Christmas list  Grin
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #74 - Nov 18th, 2023 at 7:04am
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Kidding aside you have done lovers of old rifles a tremendous service in making the videos of how to get these old rifles shooting again.  I appreciate it when someone else does all the work and I get the benefit.  I know it is a labor of love for you but wanted to take the time to thank you!
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #75 - Nov 18th, 2023 at 3:39pm
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Thanks Charlie - it is indeed a labor of love!
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #76 - Nov 20th, 2023 at 3:06pm
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ndnchf wrote on Nov 18th, 2023 at 5:31am:
Paul - the bullet seater bushing is 1.150". The .25 acp neck sizer bushing is 1.850".

Charlie - they are on my Christmas list  Grin

Thanks
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #77 - Nov 20th, 2023 at 3:27pm
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Good luck with it - keep us posted on your progress.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #78 - Nov 22nd, 2023 at 1:17pm
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All the activity on this thread inspired me to take my .25-25 out after 3 years of non-use.  (Also, it was a dead calm morning and the Range is closed tomorrow for Thanksgiving.)

The load was Bertram cases, Remington Bench Rest small rifle primers, 12.6 gr IMR-4198 and Ideal 257464, lino/wheelweight alloy, Alox-Beeswax lube, sized 0.259" with Lyman gas check.

The rifle is a collection of parts, cobbled together over the years, the shot-out round .32-20 barrel relined by Redman  to .25 caliber and chambered by yer humble narrator.  The load was the last one that seemed to show promise after all the canoodling I did on the rifle a couple years ago.  First 5-shot group at 50 yards was an uninspiring 4-3/4", but it contained an encouraging vertical cluster of 3 in 7/8".  (For some reason, the pic is turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.)

I then moved to 100yards and got 4-1/4" (3 in 3/4"), and a mystery group of four in 4" with one gone into a wormhole somewhere.

The last five rounds I clutched the rifle in a death grip, pulling the stock hard to shoulder and cheek and holding reasonably hard on the forend.  Looks like that is the charm; a 1-1/4" group resulted.

So far, I don't seem to get anything from this caliber, accuracy or powerwise, that I wasn't able to get with much less effort from the .25-21 or .25-20SS.  But, all's well that ends well.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #79 - Jan 25th, 2024 at 7:35pm
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So now that I am starting this journey I am looking for loading data for the 85gr standard bullet. I have the following powders:
4759, 4227, 4198, 300-mp, unique, and several others. 

Thank you,
CHarles
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #80 - Jan 26th, 2024 at 4:09pm
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I have not been to the range with mine in a few months, so don't have any more to add. I've already posted about my progress to date. What I've found is that with smokeless, filling that case volume enough for consistent ignition without getting excessive velocity is a fine balance.  Very small changes in powder can make a big difference in velocity. This thread has some good info to get you started.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #81 - Jan 27th, 2024 at 2:35am
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I've never liked that caliber because, I've never heard of one shooting with anything close to match accuracy.

But, if I had one, I would, for sure, try it with FF BP and 4759 duplex, with Rem 1 1/2 primers. I'd start with 2.5 gr 4759, fill with FF and a LDPE or fiber wad. Lube with a soft lube. Use a chrono and keep adding 4759, up to ~1600 fps.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #82 - Jan 27th, 2024 at 7:36am
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As a point of reference, I tried 22.0gr of Schuetzen 2F black over 2.3gr of 2400. This was with a 72 5gr bullet and CCI 450 primers. This gave me an average of 1645fps. I also tried 22.0gr of 2F APP. This gave a whopping 1932fps. 16.0gr og BH209 gave 1846fps.

As you can see, it is very easy to exceed original velocity using BP subs.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #83 - Jan 27th, 2024 at 12:17pm
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I have only used GOEX power in my duplex loads, you could slow it down a little with F grade.

I use 4759,because of it's higher bulk (takes up more BP space) and being un-coated, it ignites easy, that's why I use 1 1/2 primers.
  

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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #84 - Feb 20th, 2024 at 5:27pm
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I finally got back to the range for a brief session with the #2 rolling block. This is only at 35 yards, so it doesnt mean much. The H4198 load showed the most promise. It was the first string fired. The first round in a clean, oiled barrel went a little high, just above the top edge of the target. Then the remaining 4 grouped nicely. Next time I'll move out to 50 yards.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #85 - Aug 27th, 2024 at 1:12pm
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Its been a while since I had the .25-25s out. I brought the Stevens 44 and #2 Remington. I must say I'm very pleased with my load of 10.2gr of H4198, Winchester 84.5gr bullet and CCI small pistol magnum primers. Bullets were sized to .255" for the .253" groove size.  A second load was identical except for CCI small pistol primers. The magnim primers gave a slightly lower velocity, but also has smaller ES and SD. Accuracy was about the same. With the magnum primers velocity was 1308, standard primers 1350. This is now my go to load  Smiley



  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #86 - Aug 27th, 2024 at 1:15pm
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The #2 Remington shot well, but not as good as the Stevens. But I attribute that to the Remington front sight. It is really hard for my aging eyes to see. 
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #87 - Sep 2nd, 2024 at 7:08pm
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I'm determined to improve the #2 Remington's performance. I'm sure that part of the problem is seeing (or I should say not seeing it clearly) that original front sight. So I ordered a Lyman 17A aperature front sight to try out. 

I also loaded up another batch of .25-25 for the Remington. I hope to get back to the range later this week.
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #88 - Sep 3rd, 2024 at 5:29pm
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The Lyman 17A came in today and I got it installed on the .25-25 #2 rolling block. I put a small aperature in to start. Back to the range soon  Wink
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #89 - Sep 6th, 2024 at 7:30am
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The new front sight was a marked improvement. But the load needs development.  An upward view of the mighty .25-25. Kind if like looking up at the Empire State building  Cheesy
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #90 - Sep 6th, 2024 at 11:33pm
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Accuracy or no that is a nice looking rifle. I have owned a few 44's but none had that style lever. Is it factory or an addition?




JMH
  
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Re: Reloading the .25-25 Stevens
Reply #91 - Sep 7th, 2024 at 5:39am
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I can't say for sure, but the lever's patina matches the rifle. So it was either built that way or it was added shortly thereafter.

Steve
  
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