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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57 (Read 2440 times)
wesg
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #15 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 1:31pm
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Difference is mainly in the throat, although the chamber is a tiny bit bigger for the NATO. 223 has a .224 throat, .040 freebore from the case mouth, and a roughly 3° leade. NATO is .2265, .070 freebore, and ~1.25° leade.

There's a chart on the 223 Wiki page with pressures of NATO ammo fired in a 223 chamber, ~62k goes to 'over 70k'.

I have a Colt HBar with the 9" twist non-chromed barrel. Dropping a bullet into the throat I can see daylight around it.
  
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waterman
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #16 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 6:31pm
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As much as I like the antiques, I've decided I'll give the shepherd a Ruger No. 1 with a 26" barrel, the forearm fastened like an original High Wall, and a decent 4-X scope.   

What kind of scope?  No variables.  Good optics & rugged.  A bipod?

All of what he has is military ammo.  Should he have a 5.56 chamber?
  
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #17 - Apr 2nd, 2023 at 5:48pm
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30 carbine ?  7.62x39 ?
  
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craigster
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #18 - Apr 2nd, 2023 at 11:10pm
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waterman wrote on Apr 1st, 2023 at 6:31pm:
As much as I like the antiques, I've decided I'll give the shepherd a Ruger No. 1 with a 26" barrel, the forearm fastened like an original High Wall, and a decent 4-X scope.  

What kind of scope?  No variables.  Good optics & rugged.  A bipod?

All of what he has is military ammo.  Should he have a 5.56 chamber?


Give him Ruger #3, an "economy" #1. They were available in .223 Rem. Top it off with a 6x Weaver or Leupold. Problem solved.
  
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wesg
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #19 - Apr 3rd, 2023 at 5:30pm
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I think either the no1 or no3 is going to have a 12" twist at best. Same for a B-78/85. So his stock of 5.56 better be the original 55gr.

I think my Savage is 9? Maybe. Pretty sure I've shot 80's in it. My Colt did fine with them, another club member not so much.

Neither is what you're looking for, of course.
  
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ssdave
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #20 - Apr 3rd, 2023 at 7:44pm
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Just have him buy a savage axis 223 at the local sporting goods store.  Cheaper than a #5 action, and no rebarrel needed.  The $15 scope on it is plenty good to shoot a coyote at 80 yards.  

Might as well give him a cheap expendable rifle, he's going to put it behind the pickup seat with no case, leave it leaning against the wagon in the rain and dew, stick it into a crack between bales in a haystack, use it to pry on a stubborn gate, and similar things anyway.

Been there, seen it, my dad worked on a very large sheep operation running tens of thousands of sheep.  Used to go with him to deliver bread and groceries to the herders in the hills with their bands in the summer.  I don't think I ever saw a sheepherder gun with any finish on it, and that didn't have leather or tin patches and black electricians tape holding the stock together.  Don't remember a scope on one either, but those sheepherders are 55 years older now, probably need one by now.

I remember one complaining that he couldn't hit a coyote with his rifle.  It was missing the front sight, all he had was the rear sight.  The front 6 inches of the barrel was scratched all to hell.  I asked him what had happened, and he told me he had been trying to pry a rattlesnake out from between some rocks.  Absolutely no idea why the hell he was trying to do that.  Probably because he was a sheepherder. Wink

Also remember seeing more than one of them sharpening a knife on a convenient rock, by dragging it back and forth axially over the rough rock edges.  Knife blade looked about the same as that rattlesnake rifle barrel.
« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2023 at 7:53pm by ssdave »  
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waterman
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #21 - Apr 4th, 2023 at 12:29pm
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My shepherd lives in a post-WW3, post-pandemic #3 world in a post-Civil War #2 setting, on the west coast of post-America, just west of Craigster's place, at the onset of the next Ice Age.  Nothing manufactured. 99+ % of people dead.  Only a few survivors. Everybody relies on salvage. 

Millions of guns, but very little ammo.  Auto-loading rifles & pistols have been abandoned.  They go through ammo to fast.   Shepherd has several GI ammo cans full of 5.56, but no replacements.  Sheep are valuable because it's cold and the wool is needed for clothes & blankets.  Lots of coyotes.

I started to give the shepherd a #5 roller, but didn't want to send any present-day message that might have bad results.  I'll go with the Ruger No. 3.
  
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #22 - Apr 4th, 2023 at 1:43pm
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Looking forward to the story.
  
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #23 - Apr 14th, 2023 at 6:38pm
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I much prefer the idea of re-barreling an early smokeless roller to one of the black powder cartridges. That way you have added to the safety margin not taken from it.
I have a 1902 dated #5 action that has been highly refined in several ways. The trigger is excellent crisp with no creep, the breach face, bushed for small pin the receiver ring converted to flat top and the lower tang converted to pistol grip.    When I first got this rifle it was chambered for the 219 Donaldson Wasp but I never once fired  it as such.  It is now a wonderfully accurate 38-55 and as I said has the extra margin of safety as to chamber pressure  when loaded with black powder or smokeless powder to traditional pressures for the cartridge.
  
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #24 - Apr 14th, 2023 at 7:45pm
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Just remember that in the to-be-written post-apocalyptic story that our protagonist has only access to "All of what he has is military ammo". Makes more sense than the cannon being carried in "A Boy and His Dog". Not to mention that he will have sheep to eat instead of his girlfriend;-)
  
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wesg
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #25 - Apr 15th, 2023 at 6:08pm
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LOL! My dad rented that thinking it sounded like a good wholesome movie for the kids to watch.
  
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SchwartzStock
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #26 - Apr 27th, 2023 at 2:21pm
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marlinguy wrote on Mar 27th, 2023 at 7:06pm:
jimmy wrote on Mar 27th, 2023 at 6:59pm:
The 223 case head is a lot smaller creating less back thrust than the 7 mauser. Not saying it would or would not be safe. There are better combinations for an old rolling block.


The 7mm Mauser rounds of the early 1900's chambered Rolling Blocks were nowhere near the pressure of modern 7mm ammo we have today. So thrust pressure wasn't the same as today's ammo either. But even those modern smokeless Rollers in 7mm are often found with some headspace issues. Maybe from being fired with modern 7mm ammo?


As I recall, all modern, factory 7 x 57 ammunition is loaded to SAAMI specs. This means it is loaded to a level that is safe in any gun that it was originally chambered for. Sort of like 45-70. Several companies publish reloading data for the 45-70 in levels depending on the gun but factory ammo is loaded for the lowest denominator.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2023 at 3:55pm by SchwartzStock »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #27 - Apr 27th, 2023 at 6:06pm
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SchwartzStock wrote on Apr 27th, 2023 at 2:21pm:
marlinguy wrote on Mar 27th, 2023 at 7:06pm:
jimmy wrote on Mar 27th, 2023 at 6:59pm:
The 223 case head is a lot smaller creating less back thrust than the 7 mauser. Not saying it would or would not be safe. There are better combinations for an old rolling block.


The 7mm Mauser rounds of the early 1900's chambered Rolling Blocks were nowhere near the pressure of modern 7mm ammo we have today. So thrust pressure wasn't the same as today's ammo either. But even those modern smokeless Rollers in 7mm are often found with some headspace issues. Maybe from being fired with modern 7mm ammo?


As I recall, all modern, factory 7 x 57 ammunition is loaded to SAAMI specs. This means it is loaded to a level that is safe in any gun that it was originally chambered for. Sort of like 45-70. Several companies publish reloading data for the 45-70 in levels depending on the gun but factory ammo is loaded for the lowest denominator.


I've read enough information on the early 7x57 cartridges, compared to modern 7x57 factory cartridges to feel comfortable saying this just doesn't hold with the 7x57 cartridge. 
A lot of the smokeless era Rolling Blocks have shown they develop excess headspace issues shooting modern factory ammo in these older Rollers. Chambers in old Mexican, and Argentine Rolling Blocks usually have a shoulder that's further forward than what we see in bolt action modern rifles for the same cartridge.
The cartridge designed by Paul Mauser in 1892 was not nearly as high velocity as the newest factory ammo from modern makers. Older ammo was under 35,000 pressure, and around 2600 fps. Modern ammo is around 43,000-45,000 pressure and close to 3000 fps.
I wouldn't shoot modern 7x57 in an old Roller.

As for the .45-70 there are numerous manufacturers whose ammo is specifically labeled as not for use in older guns. And others that state their ammo is safe for all guns. So there are makers who build all levels of .45-70 ammo to sell. It's up to the buyer to know what is OK for their firearm, and do their homework.
  

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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #28 - Apr 28th, 2023 at 2:00pm
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waterman wrote on Apr 4th, 2023 at 12:29pm:
Millions of guns, but very little ammo.  Auto-loading rifles & pistols have been abandoned.  They go through ammo to fast.

Given the above, I'd have him armed with an AR 15 converted to a singleshot.

There's several orders of magnitude more ARs out there than Ruger #1s, and in an environment like that, someone will be converting them to single shots to preserve ammo.

Besides, that adds an ironic twist to the notion that "all you need is a single shot."
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Reworking a Remington No. 5 in 7x57
Reply #29 - Apr 28th, 2023 at 6:35pm
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Problem with late rolling blocks and BP cartridges is that it is usually a PITA to make extractor arrangements that will work with rimmed cartridges.  I have been down that road several times.  OTOH, I have an old RB that is barreled to 30-06 and has been working fine for 15-20 years, albeit with moderate loads.
CHRIS
  
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