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George Babits
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copper fouling and leading
Dec 18th, 2022 at 2:59pm
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I have heard that any amount of copper/guilding metal fouling in a barrel will really excentuate leading when switching to cast bullets.  I am trying to get a 7mm Remington rolling block cleaned so I can go back to lead bullets.   After 5 or 6  sessions of letting the solvent (Hoppe's #9) work overnight,  I am still getting green/blue indications of metal fouling.  I am beginning to wonder if you can ever completely get 100 years of metal fouling out of a barrel.   I shot cast bullets in this rifle for quite a few years, but switched back to jacketed.   I doubt that I ever got all the copper fouling out in the first place.   So now I am wondering just how "clean" of copper the barrel needs to be to prevent leading.   Anyone care to comment?

George
  
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yamoon
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 3:58pm
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Not an exact answer, I have a commercial Orberndorf mauser proofed in 1912, when I got it the copper fouling was so bad I could see streaks of copper in the barrel. A lot of elbow grease using Bore Tech copper remover got it out, BUT it removes stock finish even better. I use a grocery store plastic bag under a towel to protect the stock.
Mike
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 4:22pm
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Wonders of chemistry ......

"GUNSLICK" marketed at one time, and still may, a "foaming copper remover", where you squirt some of the foam in the barrel and wipe it out some time later, like 30 min to an hour.   It dissolves copper fouling readily.   
"Fatty acids" attack copper without damaging steel -- witness the green "verdigris" that you get around copper rivets in leather holsters and other leather goods.

CHRIS.
  
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westerner
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 4:57pm
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George Babits wrote on Dec 18th, 2022 at 2:59pm:
I have heard that any amount of copper/guilding metal fouling in a barrel will really excentuate leading when switching to cast bullets.  I am trying to get a 7mm Remington rolling block cleaned so I can go back to lead bullets.   After 5 or 6  sessions of letting the solvent (Hoppe's #9) work overnight,  I am still getting green/blue indications of metal fouling.  I am beginning to wonder if you can ever completely get 100 years of metal fouling out of a barrel.   I shot cast bullets in this rifle for quite a few years, but switched back to jacketed.   I doubt that I ever got all the copper fouling out in the first place.   So now I am wondering just how "clean" of copper the barrel needs to be to prevent leading.   Anyone care to comment?

George


I've heard the same thing more than once over the years. I used to use GC cast bullets in my HP target rifles for practice. Never had a leading problem.

  

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Cbashooter
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #4 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 6:01pm
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My old deer gun was a Marlin 30-30  microgroove using jacket bullets and my small game load was the 3118 with a bit of unique. I never bothered to clean the bore  before shooting that load and it would shoot about an inch at 50 yd.
  
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 6:10pm
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It's the long and hard way, but J&B works. Refreshing a patch every five strokes, I've cleaned most barrels of copper fouling with one hundred strokes. The extreme example was a badly fouled 1903 Springfield barrel that took three hundred strokes and an entire Saturday evening.
  

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George Babits
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 6:38pm
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What I was asking, and a couple of you sort of answered, was if the copper fouling made leading more severe.  I've switched back and forth between cast and jacketed bullets and always tried to get a clean bore before switching either way.  Just wondering if it was worth all the effort.

George
  
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westerner
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2022 at 8:15pm
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I never did anything special when going back and forth from jacketed to lead. Just the usual clean the bore after a shooting session routine. 

  

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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 6:00am
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George, is it possible you may be picking up that color from a brass jag or other item the Hoppe's may be reacting to.
Just a thought. The guys I hang around with swear by Bore Tech Eliminator bore cleaner and they shoot jacketed competitively.
Hope this may help.i don't worry with that issue as my rifles are dedicated to cast or jacketed depending on caliber.

Bob
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 7:17am
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Might not be an issue with nitro powders, but with black, I have a sneaking suspicion that that is how I ruined my 1st .30-20 barrel....  Fouling getting under the copper and doing nasty things.  Sad  A pity, really...
Shot it with smokeless and jacketed before switching to BP.  This was a rechambered .380 S&L barrel, and it really shot quite well.
  
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George Babits
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #10 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 9:47am
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I'm using a nylon brush and aluminum jag.   There's just 100+ years of copper fouling inthis rifle.  I'm still wondering if the copper fouling will cause leading if I don't get it all out?

George
  
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #11 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 10:50am
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Yes I can understand why you are wondering, considering it's to damn cold to go out and shoot it to find out. They would find you in spring standing there frozen holding your 100 plus year old Mexican army rifle with a dumb look on your face.
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2022 at 11:00am by westerner »  

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George Babits
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #12 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 11:10am
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Heck,  I thought you told me Arco was warmer than Salmon!!!   It was only 3 below this morning.   I was out shooting last Thursday.

The 7mm is cleaning up fairly well, but still getting a blue patch on the first wipe after sitting overnight.

George
  
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #13 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 11:19am
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I did a half-assed experiment once with two rifles that were heavily copper fouled - a Model 70 and a Springfield. Both shot beautifully with jacketed loads, after initial copper cleanout (but not down to bare metal). Cast loads were ok but nothing to write home to Mom about. I then cleaned to bare metal (back then I was a fanboy for Sweet's 7.62 Solvent) and repeated the experiment. Jacketed accuracy was actually worse and cast accuracy improved a tad, and have come to the conclusion since then that a little copper fouling doesn't hurt and may well be beneficial for jacketed accuracy. After the initial trials I dedicated them both to cast-only and slowly accuracy improved after a while to a satisfying level - whether that was due the bores becoming "seasoned" or not, I can't say. Note: all testing done with the same loads, beginning to end, both jacketed and cast. Later, tweaking of the cast loads (powders,bullets,velocities,etc.) improved things even more. No jacketed stuff has gone through them since then.

Just an observation based on a very limited sampling. I'll also say that for general non-match shooting/hunting/plinking in general with different guns I don't bother deep cleaning between bullet types, and accuracy doesn't seem to suffer much but I'm not inclined at this point to conduct another definitive experiment.
  
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blindeye
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Re: copper fouling and leading
Reply #14 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 2:16pm
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  I can't bring myself to treat a rifle barrel like a iron skillet.  

   How much rifle barrel 'seasoning' is enough?  Too much?  What kind of crud? Shouldn't that matter?
   Grease with bits of lead (and a trace of ground glass from primers) and some carbon....  and maybe sulfur from BP...   
   What about those jacketed bullets...dissimilar metals in intimate contact, zero moisture.  No humidity, ever?  Is that possible?  To avoid something like galvanic erosion. 
  
   But greasy lead bullets, Over jacketed fouling.    
  Copper, zinc, lead, tin and possibly antimony;  coating carbon or stainless steel. Some powder fouling.  Some kinda grease.   A real witches' brew.   
    That oughta be ok.   Sure.  Some people who oughta know say so.   
  But.... it's not for me.  I need to know it's pretty darn clean.    'If' something's proves to be more accurate with a coating of lube in the bore; I do that. 
    
  Guess I'll never shoot a 250 bench rest;  and I'm fine with that. 
   

    I've certainly made my share of mistakes.  
  
  Years ago, I was pressed for time and stuck a perfect-appearing 22lr barrel in the safe without even a damp patch through the bore. Rushed off to work. Two days later it was severely rusted.  Badly pitted.  Not by some ancient ammo.  Just ordinary std. velocity stuff in common usage. Why? How? Not moisture, climate controlled and use desiccant packs...never a problem before or since.      
  I don't know.  

   Other people apparently never clean.  And apparently never have a problem.
  Hurrah!   Good for them.  

   Maybe I'm just one of those people who can screw up anything.  

   
    
« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2022 at 12:18pm by »  
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