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True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? (Read 2747 times)

gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2281 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #15 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 1:57pm	Print Post
	The main difficulty in shooting small groups with this type of rifle is wind. A wind change that you can't even see can make a surprising difference on the target. Modern BP rifles like the Shiloh Sharps are capable of excellent accuracy. My .45-90 has shot sub-moa 10 shot groups at 300 yards from an NRA legal prone position in zero wind conditions, so the rifles, and the excellent molds are good. I'm certainly not the top long range shooter around, but I do OK when I show up and have bested a number of master class shooters on occasion. The best I've done at 1000 yards with my Shiloh is an 88-2x. My best target to date is an 89-1x was with my Borchardt ( built by Curt Hardcastle ) and I've attached the shot plot. One shot was not plotted and it's the pin near the top. For reference the 10 ring is 20 inches in diameter. That target was not the highest of the match ( which was shot by Dave Gullo I believe ) but it was definitely one of the better ones at the match. That should give a bit of a reference point. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Chris.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16146 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #16 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 2:40pm	Print Post
	gunlaker wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 1:57pm: The main difficulty in shooting small groups with this type of rifle is wind. A wind change that you can't even see can make a surprising difference on the target. Chris. With bullet trajectory what it is on BP rifles and cartridges, it's impossible to even know what the wind is doing at the top of your bullet's arc. So even if you posted wind flags all the way out to the 1000 yd. target, you're still guessing what it is up where the top of the bullet's path is. But that's a huge part of what makes hits so enjoyable!

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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7551 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #17 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 6:36pm	Print Post
	From memory, which distorts over time, I kept 10 shots on 6’ x 6’ paper at 1000 yards with a Trapdoor & BP loads. Very good shooting day, both wind & light. Target rifle ought to do right much better. Boats.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2838 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #18 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 6:39pm	Print Post
	Without going through a lot of gyrations, how high do heavy bullets powered by a stiff load of BP go if they are to hit the center at 1,000 yards? Let's assume that the shooter and target are at the same elevation.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16146 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #19 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 7:04pm	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 6:39pm: Without going through a lot of gyrations, how high do heavy bullets powered by a stiff load of BP go if they are to hit the center at 1,000 yards? Let's assume that the shooter and target are at the same elevation. Depends on cartridge, bullet weight, and velocity, but I'd estimate around 60 ft. at the top of the arc, give or take for a .45 cartridge at that distance.

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2281 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #20 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 10:47pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 7:04pm: waterman wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 6:39pm: Without going through a lot of gyrations, how high do heavy bullets powered by a stiff load of BP go if they are to hit the center at 1,000 yards? Let's assume that the shooter and target are at the same elevation. Depends on cartridge, bullet weight, and velocity, but I'd estimate around 60 ft. at the top of the arc, give or take for a .45 cartridge at that distance. Some time ago I calculated max height on mine. I believe it was over 40 feet if I remember correctly. That's for a .5 BC "Money bullet" launched at 1340 fps. I could be remembering incorrectly though as it was a few years ago. It'd be pretty easy to run a simulation if anyone wants more accurate numbers. But as Val says, it spends a chunk of time above the wind flags. Another factor is that due to the 3+ seconds time of flight the wind is probably changing over the flight time. I think the real problem is that at 1000 yards you use a correction of around 1.2 minutes per MPH of wind. I don't know anyone that can read the flags on a 1000 yard range to within one mph. An error of 1 mph wind reading makes the 12 inch group basically impossible. It's a pretty different game than looking at a handful of custom flags on a 200 yard range and shooting a condition. Chris.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #21 - Dec 4^th, 2022 at 11:42pm	Print Post
	gunlaker- your and Vals statements make me think somebody in the 1880's "might" have shot a lucky 10 shot 12" group at 1000 yards with Match sights but if so it was not common at all. I'd think if it happened more than once we'd have documentation somewhere from that era for such a feat??


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1676 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #22 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 2:41am	Print Post
	12 inches at 1,000 is just a smidgen over MOA, with BP and cast bullets it takes both skill and luck, that would be a target to frame and publish... And it would give you big-time bragging rights. Shooting MOA consistently at 100 is already a feat with the big-calibre BPCR's and BP, let alone doing same at 1,000. I don't know anyone who can shoot MOA at 100 on demand with these rifles and cast bullets/BP. sure, the occasional MOA group is pretty frequent, but doing it on demand...
	« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2022 at 2:48am by MartiniBelgian »

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art_ruggiero Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1090 Location: CT Joined: Dec 14^th, 2008	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #23 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 7:10am	Print Post
	things get very tricky beyond 600 ask me art


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Deadeye Bly Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1059 Location: Stephens City Joined: Feb 25^th, 2011	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #24 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 9:06am	Print Post
	I think it is false statement. I doubt if even one marksman from the 1880's accomplished this and certainly not multiple shooters or it would be documented. Less than 1 MOA at 1000 yds with iron sights would be quite good as 1 MOA is generally considered the best one can see with iron sights and then you add in the shot dispersion and you've got a much larger group.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16146 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #25 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 11:09am	Print Post
	The statement certainly isn't the average, or norm, even for the finest shooters, under perfect conditions. I have seen the occasional small group under 1 MOA for 4 or 5 shots, and then suddenly the wind picked up and moved the next few shots way off center, and sometimes off the target! When shooting the spotter is a huge part of your success as he can't see the wind either, but he can see things moving at the firing line, and down range, and help you guesstimate how it's picked up. Some spotters are amazing, and contribute greatly to your success!

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2281 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #26 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 2:39pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote on Dec 5^th, 2022 at 11:09am: The statement certainly isn't the average, or norm, even for the finest shooters, under perfect conditions. I have seen the occasional small group under 1 MOA for 4 or 5 shots, and then suddenly the wind picked up and moved the next few shots way off center, and sometimes off the target! When shooting the spotter is a huge part of your success as he can't see the wind either, but he can see things moving at the firing line, and down range, and help you guesstimate how it's picked up. Some spotters are amazing, and contribute greatly to your success! For sure. When conditions are very consistent for a few shots you can get some really tight groups. I shot a string of 6 shots at 900 that you could cover with your hand, but the next 4 spoiled the whole thing Chris.


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flint45 Participating Member Offline Posts: 43 Location: Nampa, Idaho Joined: Nov 18^th, 2018	Re: True or False Statement 2001 Handloader Mag.? Reply #27 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 3:50pm	Print Post
	I don’t know if that is true but I think there are some rifleman that could do that. I had an uncle that was an unbelievably good shot and he had a high wall in .45-70 that he was particularly good with he once put 15 shots in a row on an 18 inch metal plate at 1000 yards. I was there and I was 13 years old he let me try and I missed 10 in a row .


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