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Gigg
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Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Nov 3rd, 2022 at 5:04pm
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I posted a description of my Nagel & Menz stalking rifle under the collector sectionasking for info.  I got one response asking for photos.  Some research indicated 1890 to about 1910 for the partnership.  They made bespoke guns for high end customers.  I am trying to find a load.
Chamber cast designates a shortened 28ga brass shot shell. Land dia .562, groove .578. Case length 1.66, COL 2.50.  The quandry is a bore at the muzzle land 556, groove .560 (Choked bore!).
First load .58 OS Minie sized to .576, 50gr FFg, 1/2 cotton ball filler SPG lube.
Result impressive recoil, flyers (blown skirts?) and heavy muzzle fouling.  Most recent load .572 (400gr wad cutter Minie, Wonder Wad. 40 gr FFG, 20.2 cream of wheat filler, SPG. Haven't got to the range yet.
I can't find any cartridge reference for anything like what I have.  If the second load doesn't work may go to .575 round ball, 40gr FFG, filler and see what happens.
any advice appreciated.
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #1 - Nov 4th, 2022 at 5:21pm
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Thanks for the private recommendations on filler.  The biggest challenge is finding a workable bullet given the choked bore.  Still cannot find any reference on a known cartriodge.  Big bore for a light gun.  I will get it sorted.
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #2 - Nov 6th, 2022 at 12:39pm
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Gigg
It sounds as if you have a very interesting rifle. If you haven't already done so, the GGCA website should be a good one to try.
The posting of pictures on the ASSRA forum is very easy and a great way to stimulate discussion.I think that you were given good advise in the collectors section.
Otto
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #3 - Nov 6th, 2022 at 4:24pm
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Otto
I will try to register on GGCA, was registered ages ago but forgot password.  Asked for a new one, tried it, still no go.  Going to register under my other e-mail. 
If it is easy to post photos on ASSRA, where are the actual instructions on how to do it?
It is an interesting rifle.
Thanks
Gigg
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #4 - Nov 6th, 2022 at 4:44pm
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Gigg,
When you click reply look down below the line of smiling face emojis where it says Attachments. There is a box that says Browse. In that find the pic you want to post, select it  and click open. Post your reply and Bob's your uncle. The only catch is see the note about maximum pic size is 500kb. See other posts about downsizing pics.
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #5 - Nov 7th, 2022 at 1:01pm
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Gigg,
First thing I do is to size the picture, so that it isn't too large. You can do this in whatever program, that you use for pictures and you want to end up with a picture of not more than 100kb. My email gives me the picture size under attachments and is another way to check the size of the picture.
I then move the picture to my desktop. If I use email to check the picture, I just save the email picture to the desktop.
Now follow the directions above from oneatatime. Reply---Attachments---choose file on the desktop---Post message.
If things aren't as you want them, you can click "modify" and correct the mistake.
If you need help getting the picture the right size, PM me and I can do it for you.
Otto
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #6 - Nov 14th, 2022 at 4:51pm
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Otto
photo attempt.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #7 - Nov 14th, 2022 at 5:57pm
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It worked! Nifty rifle. Any chance it is a 24 gauge? What is the base diameter of the chamber?
« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2022 at 6:21pm by oneatatime »  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #8 - Nov 15th, 2022 at 1:34pm
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When I first saw the rifle and put a micrometer on the muzzle bore, I thought .577 Snider, piece of cake!  But the chamber will not take a Snider case (24ga).  I made a chamber cast and the diameter is 0.622 just in front of the rim and 0.620 just behind the case mouth.  The case length is too short for a Snider too.  Trimmed Magtech 28ga brass shells fit nicely.  I have fired some and the cases show no signs of bulging. 
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2022 at 11:38am by Gigg »  
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chipmaker
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #9 - Nov 15th, 2022 at 11:26pm
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Gigg,
Good job of posting a picture of your rifle. 
I can't find any 28 gauge based cartridges in my reference books.
I have a 16 gauge double rifle. It came with some loaded rounds and a couple of bullet molds but no load information. So, not much help in answering your original question. 
The GGCA is probably your best source for information on the rifle itself. You might also try Double Gun Forum, especially for load information.
Both the GGCA and the DGF will want the following:
A photo of the entire rifle, as well as the one that you posted here.
A photo of the marks under the forearm.This is the most important picture. It will be helpful in identifying the proof date and original caliber/cartridge.
A photo of your chamber cast, along with your measurements and observations from firing the rifle, using the 28 gauge shotgun shells.
I seem to recall that one of the custom gunmakers made a 28 gauge single shot rifle, maybe 10 years ago. I'll see if any of my friends can recall the name of the gunmaker, as it's likely that he has loading information.
If you select your last post and hit modify, at the top right side, you can correct the diameters in your last post and then hit save.
Otto
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #10 - Nov 16th, 2022 at 11:43am
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Otto
Yeah, I caught the diameter error.  Period got ahead of the zero typing.  You have been a great help and I will follow your suggestions.  I am heading to the range with the new load, will post results.
Thanks
Gigg
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #11 - Nov 17th, 2022 at 11:31am
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Gigg,
The German proof law of 1893 may be of some help to you. In addition to requiring proof testing of smoothbore barrels, there was an additional table for proof loads for rifled barrels.
This information is located under the forearm, usually on the bottom flat. 
As time went by, information as to bullet type/weight and powder type was added. In 1912-1913 the "R" for rimmed cases was added.
I'm sure that the experts at the GGCA forum will be able to give you additional information on your rifle and if your lucky, maybe some loading information.
Otto
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #12 - Nov 19th, 2022 at 6:07pm
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Thanks guys!  I posted on GGCA forum and got a response on the caliber question complete with charts.  Germans did make 28ga rifles similar to British bore guns and a member  provided a chart of the bullet designs.  I was heading in the right direction with my second load recipe but now have a template for a bullet.  If I use the Lyman .575494 mold and turn the base plug into just an indent it should be the ticket. A little mold hunting and machine work next.
Gigg
  
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Gigg
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Re: Nagel & Menz load for stalking Rifle
Reply #13 - Dec 3rd, 2022 at 5:48pm
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Found a .575494 mold even though they are now discontinued, turned the base plug to create a slight indent similar to the German bullets.  Cast 400gr from soft lead, German bullets were 380gr.  Loading with 4ogr ffg, 20.2 cc cream fo wheat, SPG lube.  Next step to the range soon as soon as it stops raining.
Gigg
  
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