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Digtal Scale with Black Powder (Read 1845 times)

PeteG. Participating Member Offline Posts: 14 Location: Nebraska Joined: May 1^st, 2016	Digtal Scale with Black Powder Oct 29^th, 2022 at 12:44am	Print Post
	Does anyone use an digital scale for measuring black powder? Wondering if using a glass cup set on the platen would be a spark risk? I assume not, but would welcome any insight. Thanks in advance.


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1674 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #1 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 1:49am	Print Post
	Suggest you look up black powder and static discharge - the stuff is conductive, so it is close to impossible to get it to ignite with a static discharge, certainly with whatever is present at a typical home. Hot mechanical sparks and embers OTOH, that's another story. But in short, you're worrying about something non-existent. And yes, I use a digital scale with BP - with a brass cartridge case as container.


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PeteG. Participating Member Offline Posts: 14 Location: Nebraska Joined: May 1^st, 2016	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #2 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 3:05am	Print Post
	Many thanks. Appreciate the insight. I’ll look it up.


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7545 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #3 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 7:07am	Print Post
	Dust raised when pouring black powder is very volatile. As is dust from bulk movement of grains, coal, even wood chips . Fumes from petroleum products too. Don’t be fooled by internet videos of Black Powder difficult to ignite. Static electricity setting off Black is a real danger. Recent post on this forum from member CBA shooter confirming first hand it’s potentially dangerous. Best defense avoid ignition and work in small lots. Boats


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1674 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #4 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 9:37am	Print Post
	Boats, Yes one needs to be careful. No, you don't need to spread myths around. 1st, the incident of CBAshooter was in all probablity (almost certainly) caused by burning embers falling in an open powder container - no, that's not static electricity. 2nd, you refer to dust explosions in industrial handling of powders. There's a rule of thumb that's used here: When the dust is dense enough that you cannot see the fingers on an extended arm, there's a dangerous situation where the powder concentration is >LEL (lower explosion level), and then an appropriate ignition source could ignite the cloud. 3rd, BP needs heat to ignite, and is conductive. Tis means that it will not allow static electricity to build up the kind of energy level (in home reloading use) required. Mechanical sparks, open flame, burning embers, even a heat source without a flame - yes, they will ignite BP, even without a dust cloud. After all, that's what it is for. But in the poster's question, digital scale, weighing charges, limited amounts (even if reloading 50-140) - no way any level of static electricity (which I assume he is referring to, as I don't see any other potential ignition source in the scale short of a shortcircuit) will ignite BP in a recipient. If you believe BP dust when pouring a danger, suggest you also ban flour and sugar from the house, they will do the same - that is explode when a dense dust cloud is formed, with the appropriate ignition source. And you use way more of it...


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16091 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #5 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 9:50am	Print Post
	I'm fairly new to shooting BP cartridges, but I've had an occasional issue with BP not igniting, and that seems more likely than igniting from static. I've got two cartridges right now sitting in the cartridge box out of 20 that didn't go off, even with solid primer strikes. I had to go to a thin tissue paper over the primer flash hole to ensure the BP goes off, and is consistent. I also use my Harrell's powder measure with the plastic hoppers to measure my BP, and no issues there either. I've read all the concerns about static discharge, but honestly never read of any actual experiences with it.

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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1570 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #6 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 10:54am	Print Post
	My grandfather when he was a kid heard that you can make flour explode if if it was in dust form. Him and his friend kept trying to get it to go off by dropping it inside of a Box and throwing a match in there. This was when his mother wasn't home. After trying and trying they gave up and walked back in the room 10 minutes later and his friend lit a match and the kitchen it ignited then! And yes my recent experience (Boats mentioned) says it's pretty dangerous and only takes one little spark to ignite it.


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GunBum Full Member Offline Posts: 187 Location: SW Missouri Joined: Oct 30^th, 2021	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #7 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 10:55am	Print Post
	I do explosive and pyrotechnic chemistry for a living, but you can take my advice with a grain of salt like any other internet expert. Don’t use glass. The published Bureau of Mines electrostatic discharge sensitivity for Black Powder is 0.8 Joules confined and 12.5 Joules unconfined. For reference, a person will discharge about 0.050 to 0.060 Joules when they shock someone. So, a person typically can’t ignite black powder by static discharge. However, these are probabilistic events. Every discharge has a probability of igniting the powder. Even when you are below the published value the spark can initiate the powder. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) All that being said, we use electronic balances to measure black powder and black powder like compounds at work, but we work in an ESD safe environment. I do the same at home, but without the ESD precautions. I understand the risk, and will assume it for small quantities of black powder. A well grounded balance isn’t going to set off black powder unless there is a perfect storm.


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bpjack Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2758 Location: East Olympia, WA Joined: May 18^th, 2008	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #8 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 10:58am	Print Post
	Years ago after a similar discussion, I took apart a long lighter and using the spark with the gas chamber discarded, ‘herded’ 4f grains around my bench top without being able to ignite anything. Jack

	ASSRA # 11318 just a bit of a hoot.
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7545 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #9 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 11:35am	Print Post
	Long as we are exchanging experience I was in the Coast Guard went to firefighting school and have been on scene a number of fires. Maritime fires mostly burn out before we arrived. CG investigates and determines when posable causes and publishes findings. Later life in commercial shipping handling hazardous cargo was a responsibility of mine. Thing about explosions it’s very difficult to identify ignition source . One I was involved in a very small way was was the tank vessel “Bow Mariner” blown in half with loss of life. Report could not identify source. Listed crew smoking, lightning, deck light failure and static electric as possible’s It was clear on one point, fumes from chemicals present due to improper handling. Multiple tanks open improper ventilation lack of crew supervision. Fumes and methods reported by survivors. Powders being solid are not as easy to light as powder dust, same with liquids. Saw this first hand in fire school tank of heavy fuel oil won’t ignite with burning rag. Pour gasoline on top hot day wait a bit and it goes off like a bomb. Fumes or dust many times more hazardous than the fuel as a solid or liquid. All I am telling the forum is powders will ignite easily in dust form, static electricity is real and your best defense is work small quantities. Less dust and less fuel if they do ignite. That’s how I handle my loading. Take the advise or leave it. Boats


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1674 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #10 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 3:05pm	Print Post
	Id you check the safety data sheet of schuetzen powder, it doesn't even mention static electricity. Check here: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) It does mention sparks, flames, friction or impact as conditions to avoid. A straight copy/excerpt below: PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS: P210: KEEP AWAY FROM HEAT/SPARKS/OPEN FLAMES/ HOT SURFACES. NO SMOKING P250: DO NOT SUBJECT TO GRINDING/SHOCK/FRICTION P370 + P380: IN CASE OF FIRE: EVACUATE AREA. Now I'm wondering what makes Goex different from Wano/ Schuetzen?


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7545 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #11 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 3:47pm	Print Post
	Years ago company I worked for, Barber West Africa Line carried Dupont black powder from the Mossic Pennsylvania plant in 1 lb cans to West Africa. Single shipment each year, 1 or 2 containers 30 - 60 thousand pounds powder all for Nigeria. Then distributed by the importer to other West Africa countries. Loaded at the Bayonne NJ explosives berth, not allowed at our normal commercial terminal. Load restrictions were due to the size of the shipment smaller parcels not as strict. You can see the 1 lb can reference in the GOEX MSDS We were required by the ships classification society to give special stowage with a plan in case of fire as well. As a general rule MSDS data is as packaged. Other authorities can and do have further requirements. Vessels we used at the time Japanese owners and classed. Liberian Flag. Norwegian Insured . All with hazardous cargo requirements. Norwegians I worked for had them on charter. Difficult cargo can be very profitable we did a lot of it. I have loaded cartridges with BP more years that I would like to say. Always small quantity and careful with potential ignition sources Boats
	« Last Edit: Oct 29^th, 2022 at 4:06pm by boats »

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Skalkaho Oldtimer Offline Posts: 785 Location: Montana Joined: Sep 29^th, 2006	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #12 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 4:08pm	Print Post
	Why even deal with it? A Belding mull or Lyman 55 set up right will throw accurate charges. Its getting the load right,wad,compression to a "T" to make that perfect load...now tell the wind to stop...

	May the Bullet Gods be with you.......
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PeteG. Participating Member Offline Posts: 14 Location: Nebraska Joined: May 1^st, 2016	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #13 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 4:24pm	Print Post
	Thanks for all the feedback. To add more detail, I recently started using an Auto Trickler V4 for loading smokeless match ammo. I have also loaded BPCR for about 25 years. All of my BP set up is brass, aluminum... you get the picture. I have used a beam scale for years for both smokeless and BP, but never used a digital lab scale. The rig comes with a pyrex (?) cup to collect measured charges. It is a fantastic machine for charges down to .002 gr. I am not willing to try BP in the trickler set up, but certainly want to start using the lab scale for BP loads. I'll simply set up a brass cup and calibrate the scale to it and go from there.


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GunBum Full Member Offline Posts: 187 Location: SW Missouri Joined: Oct 30^th, 2021	Re: Digtal Scale with Black Powder Reply #14 - Oct 29^th, 2022 at 4:26pm	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian wrote on Oct 29^th, 2022 at 3:05pm: Now I'm wondering what makes Goex different from Wano/ Schuetzen? The difference is the amount of information provided and the types of tests referenced. Apples/Oranges comparison unless you understand the data provided.


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