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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Powder - How much or little will fit (Read 2775 times)
RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #15 - Oct 2nd, 2022 at 11:29am
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Thanks Dave...

Could it be because the barrel was stainless...?
I don't know anything about the resilience of stainless vs. other barrel metallurgy.

anyone..?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #16 - Oct 2nd, 2022 at 1:22pm
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Throats appear to last considerably longer on stainless steel barrels than the traditional chrome moly barrels used today.
Stainless steel barrels keep their “gilt-edge” accuracy for about 15% more rounds.
Barrel steel material most definitely has an influence on life. 
Short answer: get stainless steel. 
Comparing true “match-grade” barrels, stainless will not shoot one bit better than chromemoly, but will shoot its best for longer, about 10-15 percent more accurate rounds. 
The reason is in how the steel “wears” as throat erosion progresses. 
Chromemoly tends to get rough (like sandpaper)
« Last Edit: Oct 2nd, 2022 at 1:31pm by Schuetzendave »  
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RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #17 - Oct 2nd, 2022 at 4:41pm
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I had heard that but thanks for the info, I was wondering more about yield strength if there is a difference at all....

So after a little research, I found an answer.
Crome Moly, CM (4130) has a yield strength of 63100 PSI
416R Stainless is 40,000 psi

Apparently Stainless is tougher to machine because of galling than CM 4130
In addition from what I just read, Crome Moly is more ductile.  

Schuetzendave wrote on Oct 2nd, 2022 at 1:22pm:
Throats appear to last considerably longer on stainless steel barrels than the traditional chrome moly barrels used today.
Stainless steel barrels keep their “gilt-edge” accuracy for about 15% more rounds.
Barrel steel material most definitely has an influence on life. 
Short answer: get stainless steel. 
Comparing true “match-grade” barrels, stainless will not shoot one bit better than chromemoly, but will shoot its best for longer, about 10-15 percent more accurate rounds. 
The reason is in how the steel “wears” as throat erosion progresses. 
Chromemoly tends to get rough (like sandpaper)

  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #18 - Oct 2nd, 2022 at 4:51pm
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Higher yield strength is of little value if it wears out faster.

I have also seen shooters with new chrome moly barrels that have been ringed as well.
Sometimes in the chamber itself and sometimes further up the barrel.

Charlie Dell doing testing to ring barrels found ringing is also dependent on how elevated the barrel is when shooting with a wad on the powder.
« Last Edit: Oct 2nd, 2022 at 6:50pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #19 - Oct 3rd, 2022 at 10:44am
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Just to add a little more background info, the late Charlie Dell did extensive testing with barrel ringing and claimed he could produce ringing on demand with just a few shots.  Naturally his idea was to avoid the practices that brought about this phenomenon. 

At the end of his career he settled on a regimen to maximize accuracy while minimizing the factors that encourage ringing. He was shooting his 32/357, similar to the 32 Miller Short, and his powder of choice was early Accurate #7 with H 108 running second.  First, he used a cork over-powder wad that left 1/10-1/8” of space over the powder to allow the face of the powder to “slump” slightly. He maintained that starting with a highly defined flat charge face was the main cause of ringing, but that just a small angle prevented it.  In addition he used a waxed card wad, cut from orange juice style cartons, to seal the case.  This was right at the case mouth.

Charlie never explained to me completely why the card wad was necessary or even helpful, and to be honest, I eliminated it in my regimen and could never see any difference.

There may be other methods that work, but this one has never, to my knowledge, produced ringing.  The proof, as they say, is in the pudding (or in this case in the shooting).   Cool

Regards,
Froggie
  
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RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #20 - Oct 3rd, 2022 at 3:22pm
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Froggie,

Thanks for the post.
Not to extend this discussion unnecessarily,
if Charlie Dell used a milk carton wad at the case mouth, why put another just over / close to the powder.?

I presume the others who have had success with floral foam just at the case mouth did so to just to keep the powder in the case while handling before breech seating the projectile.. 

I imagine in those instances where there is less than 50% of the available case utilized for powder such a practice would eliminate the chance for flash over.
Better, more consistent ignition maybe..?


Green_Frog wrote on Oct 3rd, 2022 at 10:44am:
Just to add a little more background info, the late Charlie Dell did extensive testing with barrel ringing and claimed he could produce ringing on demand with just a few shots.  Naturally his idea was to avoid the practices that brought about this phenomenon. 

At the end of his career he settled on a regimen to maximize accuracy while minimizing the factors that encourage ringing. He was shooting his 32/357, similar to the 32 Miller Short, and his powder of choice was early Accurate #7 with H 108 running second.  First, he used a cork over-powder wad that left 1/10-1/8” of space over the powder to allow the face of the powder to “slump” slightly. He maintained that starting with a highly defined flat charge face was the main cause of ringing, but that just a small angle prevented it.  In addition he used a waxed card wad, cut from orange juice style cartons, to seal the case.  This was right at the case mouth.

Charlie never explained to me completely why the card wad was necessary or even helpful, and to be honest, I eliminated it in my regimen and could never see any difference.

There may be other methods that work, but this one has never, to my knowledge, produced ringing.  The proof, as they say, is in the pudding (or in this case in the shooting).   Cool

Regards,
Froggie

  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #21 - Oct 24th, 2022 at 10:55am
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Hi, Froggie.
I have questions about using floral foam wads in tapered cases. For me, that means currently beginning load development in an Haenel Original Aydt and getting ready to breech seat in a Briesen barreled .33-47 on a High Wall action once a Mos mold and breech seater makes it here. For the Aydt, I've started by making a plugged case seater that seats the bullet barely in front of the case mouth on closing the action. I'm getting good results so far with a 190 grain Hoch grease groove bullet, and a floral foam wad in the case mouth over 12.5 grains of IMR 4227. I've watched guys like Bob Gleason at Etna Green seat floral foam wads above their powder like you describe Charlie Dell doing, but they're using straight walled brass. Is there a way to accomplish that with tapered brass like my 8.15 and .33-47 brass, or is the best I can do a wad in the case mouth? I've already learned a number of things from your many posts. Thanks for that! 
Geoff Crowe
  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #22 - Oct 24th, 2022 at 11:55am
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GEOFF:

If you punch your wads out of six-pak cartons to slightly exceed the ID of the cartridge near the middle of the case, and fold them in half to insert in the case, so that the fold end up points a little to the other side, they will straighten out when seated down -- not quite** on the powder.  (** say, 1/10th to 2/10th inch).   A wad in this position will not cause any problems., yet will foster uniform ignition. 

A crochet-hook is a handy tool to have at hand when learning to do this.... This may be a kinda obscure description, but a few tries will enable you to figure it out.  The crease in the wad needs to be toward the mouth of the case as the wad is seated.  The object, of course, is to keep the powder charge in a consistent position, without having it be cylindrically and symmetrically confined, which is what causes the problems associated with wads ON the powder.   A plunger with an adjustable stop on it is handy to have.

This procedure works for me in 8.15x46 and 32-40 cases just fine.

CHRIS


  
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RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #23 - Oct 24th, 2022 at 12:01pm
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Thanks Chris,

That description is very helpful.


Bob

rgchristensen wrote on Oct 24th, 2022 at 11:55am:
GEOFF:

If you punch your wads out of six-pak cartons to slightly exceed the ID of the cartridge near the middle of the case, and fold them in half to insert in the case, so that the fold end up points a little to the other side, they will straighten out when seated down -- not quite** on the powder.  (** say, 1/10th to 2/10th inch).   A wad in this position will not cause any problems., yet will foster uniform ignition. 

A crochet-hook is a handy tool to have at hand when learning to do this.... This may be a kinda obscure description, but a few tries will enable you to figure it out.  The crease in the wad needs to be toward the mouth of the case as the wad is seated.  The object, of course, is to keep the powder charge in a consistent position, without having it be cylindrically and symmetrically confined, which is what causes the problems associated with wads ON the powder.   A plunger with an adjustable stop on it is handy to have.

This procedure works for me in 8.15x46 and 32-40 cases just fine.

CHRIS



  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #24 - Oct 24th, 2022 at 4:41pm
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Thanks, Chris. That description was very helpful to me as well. Any chance you could add a photo or two showing the degree of bend (crease?) you put in the wad. Bob Gleason has a dowel like floral foam wad seater with a stop on top for consistent wad seating height in what I think is a .32 Miller short. In "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, 2nd Edition" (pg 268) Charlie says "often a seating depth of 0.100-0.125" will work very well, particularly with German rifles." So, if I begin with a stop measured to be .125" above the powder, do I need to experiment with that crochet hook and a flashlight and degree of crease and insertion angle until I can get what looks like a flat wad over the powder or will minor inconsistencies/tilt be ok as long as powder isn't leaking out of the edges of the wad? I've only put about 75 rounds through my Aydt so far with a simple floral foam wad at the mouth to try to fire form the Starline .30-30 brass reformed to 8.15. I'm getting very encouraging accuracy with 190 grain Hoch nose pour bullets and 12.5 grains of IMR 4227, but it looks like I need to bump up powder charge to get better fire forming. If I worry about accuracy benefits from the wads close to the powder later, am I safe for now (and always) with one foam wad in the case mouth? Thanks for helping with my new toy!
  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #25 - Oct 25th, 2022 at 1:36am
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A very handsome rifle.
  

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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #26 - Oct 25th, 2022 at 8:21am
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Thanks! A friend of mine has had 7 or 8 German schuetzens over the years and I've always been amazed by the artistry and workmanship. I finally got my feet wet with an Aydt myself and I couldn't be happier!
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2022 at 8:34am by hopkinskid »  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #27 - Oct 25th, 2022 at 11:31am
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Very nice! I'm sure you will enjoy it. Are both barrels in 8.15x46R?
  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #28 - Oct 26th, 2022 at 11:28pm
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Yes, both barrels are 8.15 x 46. The attached octagon barrel was nitro proofed 7/31. I did a chamber cast that gave a groove diameter of .3250" at the breech and a bore diameter there of
.3152". I also did a cast at the muzzle and got a groove diameter of .3215" and bore diameter of .3140" there. Six grooves, 14.5 inch twist. Nitro proof on one flat, J Albrecht on a flat and Detmold on a flat. Photos included. It appears to be an aftermarket barrel-unengraved takedown lever and fore end wood much lighter than the butt. The fluted barrel seems to be the original. It is marked "C.G.HAENEL. SUHL" on top, "BOHLERSTAHL   8,15X46.NORM." on the side. 2/30 proof, fore end wood matching butt, takedown lever engraved. No chamber cast yet. Unfortunately, the front sight is missing.
  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #29 - Oct 26th, 2022 at 11:32pm
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Youch! I'll work on some better pics!
  
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