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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Powder - How much or little will fit (Read 2754 times)
RJ-35-40
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Powder - How much or little will fit
Sep 22nd, 2022 at 11:18am
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Question:

Regarding Cast Bullet Load Development;

Does the percentage of space used by a charge of powder "A" vs. powder "B" matter if they produce the same velocity and pressure / curve.

I've read somewhere long ago it's better to have a charge occupy close to 100% of available space below the bullet, without compression of course unless its BP, than say 25% of case capacity.

I suspect that the reason for powders like 5744 etc. were designed to be bulky for that reason.

It is also apparent that a lot of the powders being used with success by other members in many of the straight wall cartridges 32-40 -- 38-55 etc. are in the middle of the burn rate chart.

Many of the starting vs. max load data resources 
do not specify approximate percentage of case capacity used for a given charge.

Is this a useless, time wasting consideration or is there any merit to charge volume vs. capacity, --------- powder cost not withstanding....
Assuming proper primers, neck tension and or seating resistance to obtain complete combustion. 

Guess I could invest in '"Quick Load" if I could get some assurance from the publisher that it would work on my windows 11 machine or MAC..!
After asking I get a qualified maybe.., Who wants to invest those $$$ in a program that will not work.

Any other suggestions for programs that make velocity / pressure calculations.. ?

Thanks in advance

RJ

PS I guess I could just stick with BP, fillerup, compress .1 and fire away.
« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2022 at 11:35am by RJ-35-40 »  
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BudHyett
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #1 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 3:12pm
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The best place to start is the load data in the "ASSRA Journal" or the CBA "Fouling Shot". There are "standard" loads that work well. When I started with a .38-55, I tried several powders and bullets ending up to go back to 17.5 grains IMR 4227 with a 245 grain plain-base bullet. 

This charged the case over 50%, I subsequently used floral foam wads pushing down on the powder. 

This was using a Remington Rolling Block that shot well in practice one day and "improved cylinder" on the day of the match. It is now a .45-70 hunting rifle doing well in the new assignment.

In short; use a standard load, flower foam wads to push the powder against the primer, soft alloy, breech-seat, vary the charge up and down a half grain to optimize, practice follow-through for longer barrel time, and enjoy the challenge,
  

Country boy from Illinois living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #2 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 4:08pm
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RE: 
"In short; use a standard load, flower foam wads to push the powder against the primer," 

Bud thanks for sharing.
So I have to ask, is this not a recipe for a ring chamber..?
I thought I read in many other posts, 'No over powder wads'... Am I going crazy?

TIA

RJ
  
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BudHyett
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #3 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 4:30pm
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No, not with correct wadding and modern steels. The floral foam rapidly disintegrates at the initial movement. The form is semi-plastic and small particles by the time it hits the bullet base. Modern alloys are better mixed and stonger. Steel gets its strength from the abiity to bend and rebound. 

In the old days, wads were firmer being usually cut from used hat brims or similar. This formed a solid wall that struck the base of the bullet and transferred pressure laterally. This pressure wave resonated at the point and accumulated to where a ring would form. This often was a slow buildup, but once started progressed rapidly. 

The metal in the barrels of those days was not as homologous as today's alloys. The metal today is more resistant to bend and easily springs back to original strucutre. The old barrels did not have these attributes and were more easily ringed. 

Any thing is possible, you could ring a modern steel barrel. But you'd need to work at it.
  

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RJ-35-40
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #4 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 5:02pm
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Great post...

Thanks...

So I understand, the floral foam is basically so porous it doesn't restrict or slow the forward movement of the propagating burning of the powder....
Is this a fair characterization.??

A accomplished shooter I was privileged to meet one day IIRC correctly told me there are two types of floral foam.. One of which works and the other doesn't.

If someone here can enlighten me if this is the case it will save me the embarrassment of contacting him and admitting to my faulty memory.

Thanks

RJ

RE: "homologous" word of the day..!
  
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Oldman1950
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #5 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 6:24pm
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I use WET floral foam. It doesn't contain water but is porous and will let water conduct to keep live flowers alive. I think the cells of the foam are open where DRY foam has sealed cells.
I have used WET floral foam for 10's of thousands of shots and have never ringed a barrel. I shoot 5 different 32-40's, one new barrel and the rest are original. Keep the foam about 1/10" off of the powder in the 32-40. I cut the foam into slabs about 3/16" with a band saw but a sharp knife will do the same job.

A. J. Palik
  
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BudHyett
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #6 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 6:33pm
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Oldman1950 wrote on Sep 22nd, 2022 at 6:24pm:
I use WET floral foam. It doesn't contain water but is porous and will let water conduct to keep live flowers alive. I think the cells of the foam are open where DRY foam has sealed cells.
I have used WET floral foam for 10's of thousands of shots and have never ringed a barrel. I shoot 5 different 32-40's, one new barrel and the rest are original. Keep the foam about 1/10" off of the powder in the 32-40. I cut the foam into slabs about 3/16" with a band saw but a sharp knife will do the same job.

A. J. Palik
 

Yes, this is correct and works well. At both ASSRA and CBA matches, the shooters are using this WET floral foam. I shoot two Stevens 44 1/2 with two barrels each (.32-20 CPA and .25-20 WCF) and have never had a problem. I also cut with a band saw at 3/16" inch thick.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #7 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 8:41pm
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For anyone whose interested, you can download a free ballistics program from Gordon's Reloading Tools website. It has a list of cartridges, and not all our old cartridges are on the list. But I have substituted similar cartridges to work up loads with the program, and it works great.

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bpjack
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #8 - Sep 22nd, 2022 at 10:52pm
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Another way to cut the wet floral foam is to stretch a piece of fine wire at the correct height over a piece of wood and cut it as you would cheese.  Just don't put it on a sandwich.  It tastes really bad!

Jack
  

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just a bit of a hoot.
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Skalkaho
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #9 - Sep 23rd, 2022 at 9:04am
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Why cut cheese Jack...when there's CHEEZ  WHIZ..yum yum.
  

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bpjack
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #10 - Sep 23rd, 2022 at 11:41am
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Cheese Wiz on floral foam!
  

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just a bit of a hoot.
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gnoahhh
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2022 at 9:25pm
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...or Cheez Wizz as over-powder wad.
  
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ISS
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #12 - Sep 28th, 2022 at 1:04pm
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The foam wad loading tool Neal Rice made for my rifle seated the crinkle foam wad against the powder.  We used 10gr of AA#9.  Never had any issues or crud fouling.  I shot a couple 50-shot matches and did not clean until after the match.

Rich
  
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #13 - Sep 28th, 2022 at 7:15pm
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Rich.Show A pic of Neals pusher. He always made quality stuff.Thanks,Pete
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder - How much or little will fit
Reply #14 - Oct 1st, 2022 at 7:04pm
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I know of a RKS stainless steel barrel that has ringed from the shooter using floral foam pushed down on the powder.

Do not believe the nonsense that it will not happen to modern steels or that floral foam disintegrates before the double pressure wave occurs.

In this case the ring is at the bullet base where the bullet is breech seated.

Be safe - place the wad at the top of the case.

If the rifle is only shot level it may never occur - however shooting uphill at Tommy's Schuetzen range the ringing did occur.

Ringing is also about the rifle's firing position and not just that the wad is down on the powder.
  
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