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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads (Read 1994 times)
Pilgrim
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Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Aug 3rd, 2022 at 9:14am
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Will paper patched bullets shoot with about the same, better, or less accuracy when using a duplex load vs a  straight black powder load?  To be specific, I am thinking about trying a 45-70 load with 7.4 grains of Reloader 7 and 66.6 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a BACO Jim 453546E dual diameter paper patched bullet in a gong match and do not have much time for load development.
  
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beltfed
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #1 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 10:02am
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I have shot straight smokeless loads under PP bullets at 2700fps
and straight BP loads with my DDEPP bullets to good effect.
I see no reason why the DDEPP bullet should not work with duplexing. 
beltfed/arnie
  
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Pilgrim
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #2 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 10:41am
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Thanks Arnie
  
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Pilgrim
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2022 at 10:21am
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Arnie,  Do you find it necessary to wipe the bore when shooting duplex loads with paper patched DDPP elliptical bullets?  To be specific, the load I am trying is 6.5 grains of Reloader 7 and 70.5 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a BACO Jim 453546E bullet cast with your formula of 17:1 lead and lead free solder.
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2022 at 10:36am by Pilgrim »  
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calledflyer
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2022 at 10:41am
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I'd like to hear how you managed to arrive at such precise measurements in a hurry. Not sayin' anything is wrong, or haywire at all, just curious why not something like 7.5 and 66.5?
  
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Pilgrim
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2022 at 12:05pm
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My ladder test using Swiss 1 1/2 with this bullet showed a sweet spot between 76.5 and 78.0 grains of black powder so I am starting at 77.0 grains.  I want to develop a duplex load for gong matches where most people are shooting smokeless and the maximum amount of smokeless recommended for duplex loads is 10%.  I wanted a little less than 10% smokeless and 6.5 grains is 8.4% of 77grains.  So...maybe not a good reason or not wise but I have to start somewhere.
  
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beltfed
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2022 at 1:35pm
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Pilgrim
I have not shot duplex loads since 2003 or 2004 and it was only with greasers at the time.
The NRA approved matches had banned duplexing and so I decided to just work with straight black , including the more liberal gong matches. 
And also since i had totally switched over to DDEPP bullets,
I have not done any duplexing. 
I believe that some people do duplex for some of the "rapid" shooting events without wiping between shots, because they have  no time to do so.
I would quess that a person that is duplexing would probably best to wipe "anyways"  in a precision target match, especially
in long range.
All I can suggest is to do a controlled comparison at the range of wiping or not wiping comparing groups  at 200yds or more with strings of 10 shots. 
I hope this helps
beltfed/arnie
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2022 at 3:44pm
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OK. Thanks for replying. I wondered, with such finely identified numbers if you'd already tried this out. Well, you can see where the mystery began.... Huh
Still don't follow your math but, I've done some peculiar stuff myself. Carry on, and let us know how it goes.
  
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Piltdownman
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #8 - Aug 12th, 2022 at 1:06am
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"My ladder test using Swiss 1 1/2 with this bullet showed a sweet spot between 76.5 and 78.0 grains of black powder"

Is blackpowder at these charges and granulation "efficient " enought to notice a vast difference in that charge range .I'm not questioning the results, im just  curious.

I've just not "ladder " tested  BP loads (or any to be quite honest)

  

If I hear another  millenial use the term "node" or "optimal " at the range I'll scream!!!
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rgchristensen
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #9 - Aug 12th, 2022 at 1:29am
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I think the real test of whether the duplex loads will be useful will be the shot-to-shot repeatability of velocity.

CHRIS
  
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Aussie_Hunter
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #10 - Aug 14th, 2022 at 4:51am
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I don't have  the expertise of the above posters,  but was using duplex loads 10% nitro 90%3F,  in my 38-55 Low  Wall. Chronographed a string of 5  shots on a mates chrono, without cleaning  between shots (he was  in a hurry) and had a cumulative loss of  circa 100 fps per shot, I now shoot straight black (2P Wano or 3F Wano) and clean between every shot, however at our monthly shoot last Monday one of our  very experienced shooters suggested that if my objective was to  reduce  fouling a charge  of  4% nitro was the most efficient/effective. I use commercial projectiles that are  heavily(wet) Moly coated, but do lubrisize them as well, to keep powder residue soft and aid cleaning, starting to get some  good groups, more concentration required !!! Do any of you know  if at around 1250 fps  the moly will permanently transfer to the barrel, and  effectively give me a moly coated bbl. I have achieved this with my nitro centrefire  rifles.
  
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texasmac
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #11 - Aug 14th, 2022 at 12:23pm
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Back to Pilgrim's original question, "Will paper patched bullets shoot with about the same, better, or less accuracy when using a duplex load vs a  straight black powder load"?

I'm curious as to the answer which was not provided in the previous comments.  I just sold a Browning .45-70 BPCR to a guy that plans to duplex paper-patch loads.  I was under the impression that fouling was reduced but have no idea as to accuracy results vs straight black.

My best guess is it would potentially decrease accuracy a bit due to the leading edge of the pressure curve.  Shooting straight BP results in a very fast leading edge (rise time) of the pressure curve vs smokeless.  The fast pressure increase quickly obturates the soft lead PP bullet before it starts to move into the throat resulting in a good gas seal & good alignment with the bore.  Due to the slower rise time of the front edge of the pressure curve, smokeless will tend to push the bullet into the throat before it fully obturates, allowing for some possible misalignment.  Just my thoughts & I could be all wet.

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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beltfed
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #12 - Aug 14th, 2022 at 2:26pm
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Wayne,
You may be right about the possible poor obturation of a 
"Soft PP) bullet and so a poor gas seal,etc.
HOWEVER
There are two alternatives, when combined will dispense with that scenario:
1. Dual Diameter PP bullets - Base band patches to FF case ID/freebore I.D/ groove diameter, and so does not need to obturate
2. An Antimony/tin/lead alloy used in conjunction with the DDEPP bullets with the base band as above does not need obturation and also prevents Slumping of ogive, etc. 

Works for me and some others that have set aside their thoughts that we "have to use" only lead/tin alloys for BPCR shooting.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Pilgrim
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #13 - Aug 16th, 2022 at 4:54pm
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Piltdownman,

Black powder is very efficient in these guns.  So much so that I use it almost exclusively and am only looking into duplex loads to use in gong matches where you can get pushed for time when wiping or blow tubing.  Many of the shooters in gong matches use smokeless powder and the pace of shooting is fast.  In my ladder test I loaded 16 rounds with a 1/2 grain increment of Swiss 1 1/2 black powder between each round.  I started loading with 73.0 grains and ended with 80.5 grains.  All of these rounds were shot at one large poster board with only one target dot on it.  The total vertical distance between the lowest and highest shot impact at 200 yards was only 2.98 inches.  Interestingly enough, the vertical impacts did not linearly track with the powder charge (76.0 gn was the lowest and 78.5 gn was the highest).  As you can see black powder is efficient enough that there is very little difference between impacts but with this test you will usually find a range of powder charges where the vertical spread is very small in this case only 0.222 inches of vertical spread between loads with 76.5 to 78.0 grains of powder.  Somewhere in this range you should find your best load.
  
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Pilgrim
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Re: Accuracy Of Paper Patching With Duplex Loads
Reply #14 - Aug 16th, 2022 at 5:06pm
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The gong match I was getting ready for was this past weekend and I decided to punt on using duplexed paper patch bullets .  I only had time for an informal test and loaded 15 rounds of my duplex load topped by a Jim453546E DDPP bullet.  My neighbor has a good place to shoot at rocks from his house so I took my rifle and loads over and set up on a basketball sized rock at 255 yards.  A storm was coming in and the wind was blowing pretty good.  Without wiping, the first 6 shots stayed on the rock in about a 5 inch group.  Shot number 7 hit about a foot  away from the rock and shot number 8 was even further out so I had my answer and ended the test.  When I cleaned the gain twist barrel I found a strip of paper patch and lead in the fouling.  As it turned out there would have been time to wipe the barrel between shots at the match so next year with a refined load this is what I will do.  The load I did shoot was a Fred Leeth bullet with big grease groves over a duplex load and it shot very well.  Thanks for all or your responses to my questions.
  
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