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Aussie_Hunter
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Ballistc Co-Efficients
May 31st, 2022 at 5:59pm
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Hope this is the correct topic to post this in, my query is why will bullet mould  manufacturers NOT calculate the ballistc  co-efficients  for their products ? Nearly all large commercial  projectile manufacturers do this and it makes it so much easier for hand loaders to calculate the respective drops of their loads at given distances, once they  know the muzzle velocity of a given projectile.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #1 - Jun 1st, 2022 at 12:30am
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When I was calculating sight setting out to 1,000 yards, I found all the cast bullets were so close I just used the same coefficient for all.
  

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GT
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #2 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 1:57am
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I tend to agree with SM, the variations in BC between cast bullets does exist but the more data I gather the difference tends to be small - I'm guessing this has a lot to do with our initial velocities.   
I've attached some pdf's with data from my LabRadar.   BC's calculated from velocities measured.  The samples are from my 40-90BN, one is from a 390 g Hoch nose pour, another is from a Baco 445g Nasa design, the third is from a NEI 455g nose pour Creedmoor.  The two latter ones have similar weights and varying BC's - mostly from shape but the dope for sight settings is about 2 minutes different at a 1000 yds.  The first sample is a lighter bullet, with a BC a little less,  and my dope for it is about 3 moa difference at a 1000yds.   
Hopefully these attachments make sense?
Greg
  
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notlwonk
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #3 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 8:09am
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My Lyman Cast Bullet manual  has BC's for some of their bullets and NOE has estimated for all(?) their designs.
  
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SBoomer
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #4 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 9:33am
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The engineer in me will find this an interesting thread.

Having actual “drop” numbers from targets and then massaging them into online calculators has not worked for me to arrive at any reasonably consistent BC. My only “knowns” being muzzle velocity and average drop at a given yardage.
  
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #5 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 11:33am
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Boomer,
That's exactly what motivated me - my engineering.  Although it's been several years since I applied the level of math that goes with a lot of BC calculations, thankfully there are plug and play programs and apps.

With the purchase of a LabRadar I realized I had the ability to generate a variety of velocities and the light bulb flashed.  I could calculate BC's Smiley

In my experiences, I have found the BC's that I calculate for large slow moving bullets (subsonic or transonic by 200 yards or less) didn't have as much effect as I was thinking (or hoping).  My calculated dope for these bullets were often skewed and things didn't happened as expected.  There's a couple of articles that mention multiple BC's for this sample...? so I tried their suggestions and my dope came a lot closer to actual results.  Add wind, density altitude, differences in lube, black powder variations, twist rates, barrel lengths, iron sights, the loose nut behind the trigger, and there's considerable more variables than a modern scoped rifle shooting a copper jacketed bullet.   

Unlike a high velocity round, (take my 6.5 VomHofe for example) - I get velocities, plug it into my program, get my settings, with small corrections for density altitude and viola` the bullet goes exactly where my dope says it will... 
 
I did similar experiments with 22rf and used the RA4 BC and out to 400 yards, my dope was right on... plugged data into my programs and the surprise I wasn't expecting- within less than a minute.

Aussie, 
It only my opinion, but the reason they don't publish BC's with every mold, the resources to calculate BC's has just recently become available at a reasonable cost.  The jacketed bullet mfg. needed to offer this to be in the race, but they sell a product, lots of the same product.  The mold maker, he sells a mold - does he make any money after that from that product, no.  Why invest more $$ in something he won't see any return on...  We may begin to see more info in the future but even for most, the outlay of $600 or $700 dollars for an instrument that is going to give a tidbit of info that still raises a question - not necessarily a great investment.
My 2¢ (more like 4 bits worth of opinion)
Greg 
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #6 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 11:53am
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Calculated BC numbers are never very accurate. Sierra bullets are really the only manufacturer that even tries to get it right. They publish multiple numbers for different velocities. 

There are a few online calculators that will get close, but you need accurate bullet measurements. Sometimes this is complicated by wanting the measurements based on caliber, as in the nose is 2 calibers long.

The one linked below will accept actual measurements and using bullets that the manufacturer has lengths available to compare comes pretty close. Then compared to calculations using velocity drops with a LabRadar. 

Cast bullets don’t quite fit the model because there is no way to calculate for the lube grooves, so weight, center of gravity and pressure are off. 

It will get you close enough to test with known velocity and drops so you can adjust.

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The actual formulas are also available online from different siurces
  
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ISS
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #7 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 5:25pm
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I'd always questioned the BC variance based on different alloys.  Is it meaningful?

Rich

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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #8 - Jun 2nd, 2022 at 6:36pm
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ISS wrote on Jun 2nd, 2022 at 5:25pm:
I'd always questioned the BC variance based on different alloys.  Is it meaningful?

Rich

Smiley

Not really. Not enough difference in weight.  The difference on target at 500 yards between a calculated .380 vs .340 would get lost in the noise of a rainy morning shoot and a sunny afternoon.

If you look at a brass bullet vs lead, there is enough, but we are talking about a difference of 20% if the bullets had the same shape.

Here’s the link to the page with the calculator, you can choose the actual specific gravity of your bullet and play with those numbers to see the change in BC. I manipulate that number to get calculated weight closer to actual weight.
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #9 - Jun 3rd, 2022 at 8:46pm
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I've come to believe that there's very little difference between the BC of cast lead bullets for our long-range target rifles irregardless of the shape. Abought three years ago at Harris Minnesota, a good long-range shooter from Wisconsin was shooting during our practice day. Towards the end of the day, he said "I'm going to try some different bullets that a long-range muzzleloader shooter gave him to try". He was shooting paper patch and all he had to do was pull his bullet out of the end of his case and swap out these with the other bullets. These bullets had a large meplat and looked a lot like a blunt RCBS 740. Several of us were watching at this time and he said "what do you think I should do with the sights"? A buddy of mine said, "just shoot and we'll find out". He ended up shooting two tens and an X with the same weight bullet but a much different shape with no change in elevation. This was all at 1000 yards. I think bullet stability is much more important than bullet shape unless that bullet shape leads to stability.
  
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #10 - Jun 3rd, 2022 at 8:56pm
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Or INstability
  
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #11 - Jun 4th, 2022 at 9:13am
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Old-Win is correct in regards to stability. Back when we were spending allot of time shooting through the Ohler 43 Ballistic System. All though a bullet had a higher BC the time of flight in milliseconds would be quite abit longer than one with a lower BC. This could then be related to stability and or its in flight characteristics that would be slowing it down. So it is really not all about a bullets BC but it is actually all about a bullets actual time of flight. That is what one should actually be looking for when deciding on a bullet to use. A shorter time of flight to a target equates to having less time for a bullet to be exposed too the existing adverse conditions on a given day. And it also provides some valuable in sight on its actual in fight characteristics and stability and I hope all of this makes some sort of sense.
  

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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #12 - Jun 4th, 2022 at 10:44am
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YJLouis wrote on Jun 4th, 2022 at 9:13am:
Old-Win is correct in regards to stability. Back when we were spending allot of time shooting through the Ohler 43 Ballistic System. All though a bullet had a higher BC the time of flight in milliseconds would be quite abit longer than one with a lower BC. This could then be related to stability and or its in flight characteristics that would be slowing it down. So it is really not all about a bullets BC but it is actually all about a bullets actual time of flight. That is what one should actually be looking for when deciding on a bullet to use. A shorter time of flight to a target equates to having less time for a bullet to be exposed too the existing adverse conditions on a given day. And it also provides some valuable in sight on its actual in fight characteristics and stability and I hope all of this makes some sort of sense.

A mostly correct statement, but somewhat misleading.

Time of flight, or velocity drop between two points, is exactly what BC numbers are all about. The problem is that published numbers, rarely match actual numbers for any given shot, and why actual BC varies with muzzle velocity and twist rate.

In your example, if the higher rated bullet was losing velocity due to instability, it was either due to the wrong spin rate of the bullet to obtain the advertised BC, poorly constructed or damaged bullets.

It’s also possible that one bullet’s calculated BC was more honest than the other, and it had nothing to due with stability.

This is the basis for all the arguments over the “correct or best” stability factor number for a given bullet, based on velocity and spin. It is possible for a bullet to be “stable” and fly at an angle that is not efficient, reducing the BC of the bullet. It can be stable, and not fly efficiently.

So when you say “So it is really not all about a bullets BC but it is actually all about a bullets actual time of flight.” it’s a bit awkward, and almost contradicts itself, since a bullet’s BC is a calculation/prediction of its time of flight.

If you meant, it does not matter how efficient a bullets design is, what matters is how efficiently it flies.
I would agree.



  
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beltfed
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #13 - Jun 4th, 2022 at 2:16pm
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"If you meant, it does not matter how efficient a bullets design is, what matters is how efficiently it flies."

'''----how efficiently IT CAN BE MADE TO FLY

and therefore an efficiency of the bullet design can be determined for the purpose and conditions of use.

"Yah, I know.... picky picky"
beltfed/arnie

  
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Re: Ballistc Co-Efficients
Reply #14 - Jun 4th, 2022 at 3:31pm
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beltfed wrote on Jun 4th, 2022 at 2:16pm:
"If you meant, it does not matter how efficient a bullets design is, what matters is how efficiently it flies."

'''----how efficiently IT CAN BE MADE TO FLY

and therefore an efficiency of the bullet design can be determined for the purpose and conditions of use.

"Yah, I know.... picky picky"
beltfed/arnie



Picky, but true.

My point was that saying a bullets BC doesn’t matter as much as time of flight. Is misleading since the BC is largely determined by its time of flight.

Purpose designed bullets like flat base for short range BR that seem to dominate is a pretty good example or what you are saying.

Advertised BC of a bullet is mostly a sales gimmick. Sierra tried to get it right and publishes different velocities and expected BC.

The calculator I linked will produce a BC based on velocity and the twist rate needed to obtain that number. Much more accurate if you’re trying to calculate drop.

Best is still go shoot and record actual drops.

  
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