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HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? (Read 3047 times)

Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Apr 16^th, 2022 at 10:57pm	Print Post
	The velocities are different by about 250 fps but I can't find any information on pressures. I know some older guns in 22 long rifle you don't want to use anything but standard velocity does the same run true for 22 short?


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Digital_Dan Participating Member Offline Posts: 20 Joined: Jul 30^th, 2007	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #1 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 8:32am	Print Post
	No. .22 short ammo is all subsonic and pressures are petite.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #2 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 11:05am	Print Post
	Digital_Dan wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 8:32am: No. .22 short ammo is all subsonic and pressures are petite. Kind of what I was thinking as well .. With that small amount of case capacity getting 1050 fps is going to be more pressure than the same velocity out of a long rifle case. And I'm using it in little petite" boys rifles" from the turn of the century with not a lot of locking power.


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1311 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #3 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 11:41am	Print Post
	Depends on the gun. I know of a top strap type revolver that did not hold up to HV shorts and was “told” the reason a Stevens Tip pistol shot loose was standard velocity shorts. The overall condition of the Stevens was such that I’m not sure the ammo was the only problem. I shoot the CB Shorts in my tip up pistol, never an issue. I ran numbers through Quickload at one time and the HV shorts were very close to standard LR pressures. Without digging up notes or re-running the numbers, these would be rounded up. CB Shorts 7000 PSI Standard velocity shorts 9000 PSI HV shorts/LR 11000 psi After watching the top strap come apart, I have stayed away from the high velocity rounds, unless I know it’s a strong, sound action.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #4 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 6:39pm	Print Post
	Thanks Dellet. I'll keep with the lower velocity stuff


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Digital_Dan Participating Member Offline Posts: 20 Joined: Jul 30^th, 2007	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #5 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 6:43pm	Print Post
	(You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #6 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:22pm	Print Post
	Digital_Dan wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 6:43pm: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Thanks but is reads like all of the 22 short have the same pressure?


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1311 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #7 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:39pm	Print Post
	Those are Max pressures. Not loaded pressures. 21,000 psi is a bit optimistic. That’s always been a bit of a mystery number. Considering other black powder cartridges that made the transition like 38 special and 45 Colt. They are SAAMI pressure listed at 17& 15,000. For perspective 32 S&W is 12,000.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #8 - Apr 17^th, 2022 at 9:00pm	Print Post
	Dellet wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:39pm: Those are Max pressures. Not loaded pressures. 21,000 psi is a bit optimistic. That’s always been a bit of a mystery number. Considering other black powder cartridges that made the transition like 38 special and 45 Colt. They are SAAMI pressure listed at 17& 15,000. For perspective 32 S&W is 12,000. Ya I thought 21k seemed a bit up there.


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1311 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #9 - Apr 18^th, 2022 at 12:28am	Print Post
	Cbashooter wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 9:00pm: Dellet wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:39pm: Those are Max pressures. Not loaded pressures. 21,000 psi is a bit optimistic. That’s always been a bit of a mystery number. Considering other black powder cartridges that made the transition like 38 special and 45 Colt. They are SAAMI pressure listed at 17& 15,000. For perspective 32 S&W is 12,000. Ya I thought 21k seemed a bit up there. The thing is, there are powders that will get you there and stay below 1000 FPS. Soft lead with a heeled bullet and that much pressure with a external lube doesn’t seem like something some one would market. Most of the high velocity shorts out there are plated or copper washed, I don’t know what kind of pressure tolerance increase that might add. Just remember that there were a fair number of semi auto pistols and rifles made that were 22 short only. My thinking is that is where the 21,000 psi comes into play. I used Vihtavouri 3N37 in my models because that is the only powder I had anyone confirm was used in 22 RF and was the only manufacturer I could get info from.


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GunBum Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 298 Location: SW Missouri Joined: Oct 30^th, 2021	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #10 - Apr 18^th, 2022 at 8:35am	Print Post
	Cbashooter wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 9:00pm: Dellet wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:39pm: Those are Max pressures. Not loaded pressures. 21,000 psi is a bit optimistic. That’s always been a bit of a mystery number. Considering other black powder cartridges that made the transition like 38 special and 45 Colt. They are SAAMI pressure listed at 17& 15,000. For perspective 32 S&W is 12,000. Ya I thought 21k seemed a bit up there. Usually the important number is bolt thrust, not chamber pressure. .22LR and .22 Short have small case head areas, so correspondingly low bolt thrust.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #11 - Apr 19^th, 2022 at 12:11pm	Print Post
	Dellet wrote on Apr 18^th, 2022 at 12:28am: Cbashooter wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 9:00pm: Dellet wrote on Apr 17^th, 2022 at 7:39pm: Those are Max pressures. Not loaded pressures. 21,000 psi is a bit optimistic. That’s always been a bit of a mystery number. Considering other black powder cartridges that made the transition like 38 special and 45 Colt. They are SAAMI pressure listed at 17& 15,000. For perspective 32 S&W is 12,000. Ya I thought 21k seemed a bit up there. The thing is, there are powders that will get you there and stay below 1000 FPS. Soft lead with a heeled bullet and that much pressure with a external lube doesn’t seem like something some one would market. Most of the high velocity shorts out there are plated or copper washed, I don’t know what kind of pressure tolerance increase that might add. Just remember that there were a fair number of semi auto pistols and rifles made that were 22 short only. My thinking is that is where the 21,000 psi comes into play. I used Vihtavouri 3N37 in my models because that is the only powder I had anyone confirm was used in 22 RF and was the only manufacturer I could get info from. I have chronographed all the old "Olympic Match" .22 Short loads I could find. All had lower velocities than CCI Standard Velocity Shorts. Many around 660 fps. They just had to make a blow-back pistol function flawlessly and hit a pretty large target (4 cm?) at 25 meters. But I have experienced case failures, even case disintegration, with "modern" production Fiocchi copper-cased Shorts. I will no longer shoot those in a Winder or even a 52. Hot gas & flame. Exciting!


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1311 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #12 - Apr 19^th, 2022 at 12:44pm	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Apr 19^th, 2022 at 12:11pm: I have chronographed all the old "Olympic Match" .22 Short loads I could find. All had lower velocities than CCI Standard Velocity Shorts. Many around 660 fps. They just had to make a blow-back pistol function flawlessly and hit a pretty large target (4 cm?) at 25 meters. But I have experienced case failures, even case disintegration, with "modern" production Fiocchi copper-cased Shorts. I will no longer shoot those in a Winder or even a 52. Hot gas & flame. Exciting! As kids we had a Browning SA-22 that was a short only rifle. My brother also had a Crackshot. The Crackshot got retired because it kept splitting rims and blowing gas in your face. It was some years later that my brother drug it out and wanted to get it shooting. Bought ammo and never duplicated the problem. By then the Browning and the ammo was long gone. When I started fooling with the 25 rimfire made from 17 WSM I took a deep dive into 22 LR pressures trying to figure out the SAAMI pressures. I know as kids we were going going for the hottest loads we could find and needed those for the Browning. So I have since wondered if it was just a hot lot of high velocity shorts at the time, or that is just the normal pressure difference. Never occurred at the time to buy the “slow ammo” for the Crackshot. All my 22 short chambered antiques now get straight lead bullets and standard velocity or CB’s now.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #13 - Apr 20^th, 2022 at 12:29pm	Print Post
	A friend, now a victim of Covid, had a Crackshot with a Win 52 barrel, .22 LR. He shot it as an offhand match rifle for years, including the Winter League. SV only, because he won a lot of matches. Never thought about the cartridge being too much for the action. Same guy once brought some sort of Flobert to the range. We tied it down and tried it with a CCI Target Short. Blew the breech open and ejected the case across the shooting house. Tried it again with one of the Olympic Match Shorts. Not as violent, but still opened the breech.


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northwoodneil Full Member Offline Posts: 123 Location: Wisconsin Joined: Jul 25^th, 2021	Re: HV 22 Short vs Target 22 Short pressures? Reply #14 - Apr 20^th, 2022 at 5:14pm	Print Post
	There are 2 Stevens crack shots. One is a break action (model 26) and one is kind of like a rolling block side lever (model 16). The second one has a very weak action. CB shorts are fine in it but HV will re-cock the hammer.
	« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2022 at 5:23pm by northwoodneil »

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