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Weighing Cases and BP (Read 4213 times)

Premod70 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 864 Location: North Carolina Joined: Jan 16^th, 2016	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #15 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:42pm	Print Post
	I don’t have the article but a test was done using a near perfect case verses a case that was the most out of round of the same maker’s lot. Both cases were fired with the same load at quarter turns five shots to the turn. The dispersion was noticeable but the amount escapes me but certainly worth noting. As a side note there are large numbers of precision shooters that use only Lapua brass, a brass noted for it’s uniform thicknesses.


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hepburnman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 402 Location: NJ Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2015	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #16 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:49pm	Print Post
	I agree Chris that BP is most likely not as sensitive as smokeless as to case capacity variations. I don't agree that BP is a less accurate powder compared to smokeless. BP has shown a much lower MV standard deviation, therefore less vertical spread compared to smokeless. I think maybe we don't really have a accurate consistency reports for BP because there is no sport that uses it while being benchrest and shoots to 200 yds, maybe? There are other "things" I think that are associated with BP fixed loads that affect it accuracy potential (lead bullets, lube, fowling, etc.) more so than the BP propellant itself.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #17 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:50pm	Print Post
	Premod70 thanks for sharing that as it is very interesting to have someone else experience the same rotation results as myself.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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hepburnman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 402 Location: NJ Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2015	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #18 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:54pm	Print Post
	Old-Win wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 11:28am: Two things, that I look out for when loading for bpcr especially for extended distances. (eight hundred to a thousand yards) The 1st I got from reading reloading information from an original Sharps Rifle Co. catalog. They stressed that it was very important to watch your powder column height. When you drop tube the powder, each column height should be the same before you start your compression. If not dump the powder and pour again until you get the proper column heights. I used a brass plug and would mark it with a sharpie and if I had some cartridges where the powder column height seemed to be too high or too low I would re-drop the powder again until they were all the same. This is probably not a problem if you're compressing the powder quite a bit. And the other thing I watch very carefully is my bullet run-out. Paper patchers usually don't have this problem because the bullet is so far up the barrel. I sort my loads and try to keep my ammo for long distance shooting between.001" and .003" inches run out with those with minimal runout saved for 1,000 yards. OK, this is a good point, to check dropped powder heights! I'll give this a try to see if I see variations here. Thanks! As for bullet run-out this would not make sense for me as my bullets are a slip fit in the case, as I do not want the case to influence the bullet's alignment with the bore.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #19 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 2:17pm	Print Post
	I myself have never used BP but now looking back and it now also being to late. I wished one of my own personal goals was to have spent the time that I had spent to reach those goals while using Smokeless Powder By using BP in my 32-40 for breech seating benchrest competitive use while also using the same case if it would have been possible to do so.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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hepburnman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 402 Location: NJ Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2015	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #20 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 5:40pm	Print Post
	I just might try a little neck tension and see what happens. Might also see how I can rig up a fixture to check bullet run-out too. Nothing is cast in stone....


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2281 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #21 - Apr 15^th, 2022 at 8:24pm	Print Post
	hepburnman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:49pm: I think maybe we don't really have a accurate consistency reports for BP because there is no sport that uses it while being benchrest and shoots to 200 yds, maybe? Steve Garbe held matches of this sort ( maybe he still does ? ). I asked him once on another schuetzen forum and he told me that he'd been able to get reliable 24 ring accuracy, but not reliable 25 ring accuracy. Then are/were the muzzle loading slug gun matches. I think that is the pinnacle of BP bench rest accuracy. I'm a big fan of black powder and shoot it as often as I get the chance. Probably 500 bp rounds for every smokeless round I shoot so I'd love it if someone were to be competitive with the smokeless rifles at 200 yards or 40 rods to be more traditional. RSW's most recent book shows the results of his recent crack at maximal accuracy with traditional methods. It's definitely worth a read. Chris.


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condorsc Full Member Offline NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA, SCV Life Posts: 152 Location: Beaufort, S.C. Joined: Nov 13^th, 2021	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #22 - Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 1:16am	Print Post
	hepburnman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:49pm: I agree Chris that BP is most likely not as sensitive as smokeless as to case capacity variations. I don't agree that BP is a less accurate powder compared to smokeless. BP has shown a much lower MV standard deviation, therefore less vertical spread compared to smokeless. I think maybe we don't really have a accurate consistency reports for BP because there is no sport that uses it while being benchrest and shoots to 200 yds, maybe? There are other "things" I think that are associated with BP fixed loads that affect it accuracy potential (lead bullets, lube, fowling, etc.) more so than the BP propellant itself. I am new to BPCR; here are two aspects of loading I am most curious about. First, I ordered the proper screens from England last year to sift FFG and FFFG. I sifted Old Eynesford FFG and was shocked to see it grade out to 40% FFFG, 60% FFG! What are your comments on compressing this behind a Lyman 457125 in .45-70? Second, would anyone recommend segregating the FFFG and FFG in different loads? I intend to sift my Swiss and GOEX. Comments on that? Does anyone do this sort of thing?


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1676 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #23 - Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23am	Print Post
	You're going way too far, don't sift anything, especially Swiss. Just loading and shooting works way better, and gives you the trigger time you need.


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Bent_Ramrod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1459 Location: Southern Arizona Joined: Feb 8^th, 2006	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #24 - Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 9:18am	Print Post
	Condorsc, Manufacturers have standards set up for particle size distributions for their powder designations where certain percentages are stopped on one screen size and pass through another. In rescreening the powder, you are not separating FFg from FFFg, you are making powder grade(s) of your own. May be interesting for experimental loading, or your own “special, secret” target loads, but generally people do fine with the size distribution they get in the can. In the Bad Old Days (~30 years ago), when the only product was standard GOEX, some shooters would put the stuff in a stocking to shake out the fine dust, but that’s all I recall of systematic post-treatment of black powder.


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hepburnman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 402 Location: NJ Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2015	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #25 - Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 10:46am	Print Post
	gunlaker wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 8:24pm: hepburnman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:49pm: I think maybe we don't really have a accurate consistency reports for BP because there is no sport that uses it while being benchrest and shoots to 200 yds, maybe? Steve Garbe held matches of this sort ( maybe he still does ? ). I asked him once on another schuetzen forum and he told me that he'd been able to get reliable 24 ring accuracy, but not reliable 25 ring accuracy. Then are/were the muzzle loading slug gun matches. I think that is the pinnacle of BP bench rest accuracy. I'm a big fan of black powder and shoot it as often as I get the chance. Probably 500 bp rounds for every smokeless round I shoot so I'd love it if someone were to be competitive with the smokeless rifles at 200 yards or 40 rods to be more traditional. RSW's most recent book shows the results of his recent crack at maximal accuracy with traditional methods. It's definitely worth a read. Chris. I do remember the challenge many years ago and I remember someone did win it. I Don't remember who. I think it was 10 shots at 200yds? Don't remember the accuracy requirement. Slug guns are a good example of trying for best accuracy with BP but my interest was accuracy with loaded cartridges of BP and alloy bullets. Thanks for the info!


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hepburnman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 402 Location: NJ Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2015	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #26 - Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 10:50am	Print Post
	condorsc wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2022 at 1:16am: hepburnman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2022 at 1:49pm: I agree Chris that BP is most likely not as sensitive as smokeless as to case capacity variations. I don't agree that BP is a less accurate powder compared to smokeless. BP has shown a much lower MV standard deviation, therefore less vertical spread compared to smokeless. I think maybe we don't really have a accurate consistency reports for BP because there is no sport that uses it while being benchrest and shoots to 200 yds, maybe? There are other "things" I think that are associated with BP fixed loads that affect it accuracy potential (lead bullets, lube, fowling, etc.) more so than the BP propellant itself. I am new to BPCR; here are two aspects of loading I am most curious about. First, I ordered the proper screens from England last year to sift FFG and FFFG. I sifted Old Eynesford FFG and was shocked to see it grade out to 40% FFFG, 60% FFG! What are your comments on compressing this behind a Lyman 457125 in .45-70? Second, would anyone recommend segregating the FFFG and FFG in different loads? I intend to sift my Swiss and GOEX. Comments on that? Does anyone do this sort of thing? I, for one, would be interested in hearing your results with sifting Swiss BP. I have not found any small fines in Swiss but would be curious to know if there is variation to some degree in the grain sizes. If we don't make tests we just don't know. Thanks for your efforts!


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1676 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #27 - Apr 23^rd, 2022 at 2:55am	Print Post
	Also, don't forget that one producer's grades aren't necessarily another one's. There's a reason Swiss has 5 grades, and they relabeled their no.4 as 1 1/2Fg for the US market. Each manufacturer had a different set of criteria.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2281 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #28 - May 4^th, 2022 at 3:17pm	Print Post
	I was thinking about this thread on my way home from the range this morning. Maybe I'll change my mind on black powder 250's. Since last week I've started using the 25 ring target instead of the NRA 600yd reduced for 200 for prone practice and load testing with my BPTR & silhouette rifles. Today was the first time shooting my .40-65 silhouette rifle at 200m prone on the 25 ring target. My standard match load shot a 245-6c in breezy conditions with no wind flags. I'm sure that a benchrest shooter could have put those other 4 into the 25 ring with a little practice and wind flags, especially since there was big time user error that threw the last shot into the 23 ring. I'm still not 100% back into form for prone shooting. The small 25 ring makes for a nice small aiming point though my 6x MVA scope. Chris.


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Dusty Rhodes Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Joined: Apr 28^th, 2016	Re: Weighing Cases and BP Reply #29 - May 11^th, 2022 at 7:42am	Print Post
	Interesting subject. Yes I found that when drop tubing BP, the height could vary quite a bit sometimes, noticable when filling the case to the top for Breach seating. I often 're drop' a load. As for sieving powder, I certainly have done it with cheap powders. One lot of French stuff I had a few years ago, I seperated 3 different sizes. After that, it shot very well. I havn't sieved Swiss. I wonder if the diffence between 'cheap' BP and the more expensive / 'better quality' powders, is the sieving process at the Factory. ??


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