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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Patina or just filthy? (Read 7149 times)
cellargun
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Patina or just filthy?
Apr 5th, 2022 at 9:31pm
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I bought an 1887, 3rd year production HighWall this weekend in Tulsa. It’s 135 years old and looks every bit of that. The metal is covered with what could generously be called patina, but most would call filth and grime. It has a texture similar to truck bed liner. I had to cut off 1 1/4” from the muzzle, as someone had run a 7/16 drill into it at some point. I experimented with the drop to remove the grime. Acetone didn’t touch it, nor did a brass scraper or oily steel wool. I finally got under the crust with a slightly dulled wood chisel. Steel wool scrubbing revealed good metal and remarkably, some blue. 
Would this grime be considered patina by some, most, any of you? To me it isn’t. Strip it by whatever method works, or leave it? It certainly isn’t going anywhere.
Second part- while the forend has some remaining finish, the buttstock is bone dry. In the interest of preservation, what is the general opinion(s) regarding adding finish to at least hold it at the current state?
Thanks.
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #1 - Apr 5th, 2022 at 11:14pm
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Patina is an overworked term, IMO. If it's brown, it's rust, albeit fine pleasing rust.

Grime and crud on the other hand is just garbage that a seller should clean off the gun before selling. To not do so is just laziness in my opinion.
  
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MrTipUp
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #2 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 6:33am
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As someone who has done a lot of metal restoration, I completely agree with gnoahhh.  Also, finish is put on a stock to protect it.  If the finish goes bad - e.g., becomes soft/gummy - or is missing, you should replace it.  And that does not necessarily mean removing wood and thus real patina.  There are, for example, an increasing array of oil and hard wax wipe-on finishes that should work very well and the results do not look like plastic.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #3 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 8:43am
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Quite often what is on the metal surfaces is built up layers of dried oil. I have found that penetrating oils such as Kroil or PB Blaster soften these layers so they can be removed with steel wool. Several attempts over several days seems to work well.
  
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cellargun
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #4 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 8:43am
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If you have ever been to the Tulsa gun show, you will see table after table with filthy firearms side by side with beautiful ones. Dirty outside is one thing, but could they at least run a patch down the bore? gnoahhh wrote on Apr 5th, 2022 at 11:14pm:
Patina is an overworked term, IMO. If it's brown, it's rust, albeit fine pleasing rust.

Grime and crud on the other hand is just garbage that a seller should clean off the gun before selling. To not do so is just laziness in my opinion.

  
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cellargun
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #5 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 8:51am
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I’ve done my share of metal work too. I’m not looking to restore this, but make it look less neglected. I’m with you on the wood. It isn’t soft, but is definitely dry. A guy I worked for years back would scrub forends and buttstocks with acetone and steel wool. It removed the old soft/gummy/icky finishes, as well as oil, but left the color and true patina. A few coats of an oil finish completed the job. I’ve used his method and it works. MrTipUp wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 6:33am:
As someone who has done a lot of metal restoration, I completely agree with gnoahhh.  Also, finish is put on a stock to protect it.  If the finish goes bad - e.g., becomes soft/gummy - or is missing, you should replace it.  And that does not necessarily mean removing wood and thus real patina.  There are, for example, an increasing array of oil and hard wax wipe-on finishes that should work very well and the results do not look like plastic.

Bill Lawrence

  
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cellargun
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #6 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 8:58am
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I learned from the barrel drop that this won’t be a spray and wipe proposition. Oil, dirt, sweat, the old timers choice of linseed oil, who knows what it may be after 135 years of age. A random conversation with a friend last night had him suggest hot soapy water with the steel wool. Regardless of the solvent, I’m quite sure it will require some mechanical assistance like steel wool to help it along.Deadeye Bly wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 8:43am:
Quite often what is on the metal surfaces is built up layers of dried oil. I have found that penetrating oils such as Kroil or PB Blaster soften these layers so they can be removed with steel wool. Several attempts over several days seems to work well.

  
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SBoomer
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #7 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 9:09am
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If its not “collector grade”, clean it up and shoot it. I have wiped down a lot of tired old stocks with Tru-Oil without doing any cleaning whatsoever. Just a fingertip application and immediate dry rag removal. Im most cases it greatly enhances the look without adding the refinished look. For whatever reason, the old Remingtons seem benefit the most from this process.
  
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Sure shot
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #8 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 10:28am
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SBoomer wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 9:09am:
If its not “collector grade”, clean it up and shoot it. I have wiped down a lot of tired old stocks with Tru-Oil without doing any cleaning whatsoever. Just a fingertip application and immediate dry rag removal. Im most cases it greatly enhances the look without adding the refinished look. For whatever reason, the old Remingtons seem benefit the most from this process.


I’ve done the same thing with tru-oil, works well. I just lightly cleaned a Stevens model 87 that had a dirty stock, steamed a few dents and lightly cleaned the stock with mineral spirits with 0000 steel wool, then a couple of coats of tru-oil. It looks better and doesn’t look refinished. The metal had brown spotty patina, I polished with 0000 steel wool, and used Oxpho cold bluing over the remaining brown patina, and it looks much better. I wouldn’t do the cold bluing to a valuable collector piece.
  
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cellargun
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #9 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 11:57am
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This one is anything but collector grade, definitely no more than a shooter. Tru-Oil, Pro Custom Oil, there are several I’ve used to give it a cared for, rather than new look. I agree, it doesn’t take but a coat or two to do wonders for a piece. SBoomer wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 9:09am:
If its not “collector grade”, clean it up and shoot it. I have wiped down a lot of tired old stocks with Tru-Oil without doing any cleaning whatsoever. Just a fingertip application and immediate dry rag removal. Im most cases it greatly enhances the look without adding the refinished look. For whatever reason, the old Remingtons seem benefit the most from this process.

  
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cellargun
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #10 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 12:02pm
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I certainly don’t want a refinished look. As for the metal, I’ve done the same with Oxpho, but more often with a product called Van’s. It seems to require more applications, but is easier to control without getting the cold blue look. I won’t make any decisions until I have the metal clean. I may leave it alone, as I have my share of silvery and/or splotchy blue rifles.Sure shot wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 10:28am:
SBoomer wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 9:09am:
If its not “collector grade”, clean it up and shoot it. I have wiped down a lot of tired old stocks with Tru-Oil without doing any cleaning whatsoever. Just a fingertip application and immediate dry rag removal. Im most cases it greatly enhances the look without adding the refinished look. For whatever reason, the old Remingtons seem benefit the most from this process.


I’ve done the same thing with tru-oil, works well. I just lightly cleaned a Stevens model 87 that had a dirty stock, steamed a few dents and lightly cleaned the stock with mineral spirits with 0000 steel wool, then a couple of coats of tru-oil. It looks better and doesn’t look refinished. The metal had brown spotty patina, I polished with 0000 steel wool, and used Oxpho cold bluing over the remaining brown patina, and it looks much better. I wouldn’t do the cold bluing to a valuable collector piece.

  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #11 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 12:34pm
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In order to avoid giving more money to corporations, and because I have the stuff on hand for use in my business (and subscribe to the concept of do-it-yourself), I use a simple mix of artist's grade linseed oil or tung oil and mix in some spar varnish at a ratio of around 70/30. By eye, it doesn't have to be terribly exact. Slather it on, wipe off almost immediately, let dry overnight, and wax with a good paste wax. Compatible with any kind of wood finish. 

A good friend who's a conservator at the Smithsonian say's that he often just goes straight to Renaissance Wax as a (sort of) cleaner, protector, and pretty-fier. I guess if it's good enough for the Smithsonian it's good enough for me, so I've occasionally done that with satisfying results.
  
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #12 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 1:46pm
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I've not tried it, but have heard of good results using a spray-on oven cleaner for dirt/grime on metal.  Might try it on your test piece...

Regards,
Joe
  
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MrTipUp
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #13 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 2:13pm
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This is just my viewpoint as an experienced professional: Real "patina" is the result of a chemical reaction, usually oxidation; it's in the surface, not on it.  Thus if the "gunk" stands proud under magnification or you can "catch" it with your fingernail or the edge of a razor blade, you can seriously consider very carefully and appropriately removing it from the underlying surface.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Patina or just filthy?
Reply #14 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 2:42pm
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What caliber and how much $ ?  I'm just curious. I'm always looking. Just missed a 40-82 last fall for $800 or so. It needed relined. 

I would have left the barrel length original. 

Sounds like dirt and crud that needs to be cleaned off.
  
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