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RJ-35-40
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Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Mar 31st, 2022 at 5:14pm
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Looking for opinions;

Bought a Octagon barrel 1.1" across the flats.

Thinking about having approximately 2/3rds
turned into a round profile.

Other than subjective appearance does one profile perform better than another in terms of inhibiting or reducing barrel harmonics wip / sign wave more than any other...?

Are there any material scientists, metallurgist's, tuning fork designers, string musicians...practical experimenters, out there who might shed some light..?

THX

Bob
  
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John Boy
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #1 - Mar 31st, 2022 at 5:57pm
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Test it in the area of 7 inches from the muzzle.   
If the flat harmonic's noise is not there, start at the top of a vertical with a brass hammer
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #2 - Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:09pm
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I am a mechanical Engineer with 55 years of manufacturing experience. Never
tried to determine Barrels for stiffness. BUT! Look around, see what the the Bemch rest guys are shooting. Big Fat heavy Barrels! There is a reason. I own many fine Single Shot Rifles but have never wanted to experiment. My interest has always been offhand shooting. Have a number of #4 weight barreled rifles in good order and a couple of #5 weight, never bothered so far to shoot the #5s too much work.
I do know that when I have those Hail Mary letoffs. That is when the rifle settles down and steady's up on the target and I am suprised when it goes off and my follow thru is good I usually get a hole right where I last saw the Cross Hairs.
I own a Pope 38-55 in 38-55 and it is a Half Round #4 barrel and it shoots better than I can hold. So if your desire is to compete as a bench rest shooter get the most for your money. HTH Regards FITZ OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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wesg
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #3 - Mar 31st, 2022 at 9:14pm
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I can't even imagine there'd be a difference ... and as a certain starship pilot was known to have said ... 'I can imagine quite a bit'.

The only condition I could see making an accuracy difference would be in the case of a poorly stress relieved, button rifled barrel being turned down and the bore opening up.

I had one do that, and it didn't seem to effect accuracy. But that was a high pressure cartridge shooting jacketed bullets. And I really didn't shoot it very well at 1k with irons anyway Wink
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #4 - Mar 31st, 2022 at 9:49pm
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"Real" bench-rest shooters (not us single-shot guys) tend to go with short fat barrels.  Most "schuetzen" shooters go for longer, skinnier barrels that balance better for OH shooting.   OTOH, Charlie Dell was  a fan of stubby barrels, and his 20-shot OH record has stood for MANY years.

CHRIS
  
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SchwartzStock
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #5 - Apr 1st, 2022 at 8:24am
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Sine?

Personally I hate the look of a half round barrel and just pure logic says a octagon form is harder to bend than a round one.

Long barrels "drift" across the target slower especially in OH which can result in a bullet being in or out of the black. Shooters saw this a lot with service rifle competition using M1's and M14's. The heavier weight on the front end (similar to a longer barrel) of the M1 would result in bullets in the black vs out of the black with an M14 when comparing the sight picture when the round broke. he sights (muzzle) just drifted slower across the target.

Of course longer barrels also allow longer sight radius's and contribute to more precision in aiming...
  

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JLouis
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #6 - Apr 1st, 2022 at 8:56am
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When referring to those benchrest guys they also cannot exceed a specific rifle class weight and probably actually why their barrels are short and fat. At the other end of the spectrum the 1000 yard guys have allot more freedom and their barrels are more typically both fat and long. Not sure how this difference might actually relate to Harmonics as they both seem to work extremely well for each of those groups.
  

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RJ-35-40
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #7 - Apr 1st, 2022 at 11:42am
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Thanks to all for your observations.

I've seen everything from 'Rail Gun' profiles (short fat) to longer thinner (to make weight) barrels.

One of my goals in this project is to keep the project in the same genre as the rifles designed in 1885, like the Hi Wall. So going short and fat or pencil thin is not something I'm interested in.

I spoke with Stan at Douglas barrels this morning and asked him about profiles, his response was that opinions are all over the map when it comes to barrel Whip.

More research needed....

Again thanks for your observations.

Bob
rgchristensen wrote on Mar 31st, 2022 at 9:49pm:
"Real" bench-rest shooters (not us single-shot guys) tend to go with short fat barrels.  Most "schuetzen" shooters go for longer, skinnier barrels that balance better for OH shooting.   OTOH, Charlie Dell was  a fan of stubby barrels, and his 20-shot OH record has stood for MANY years.

CHRIS

  
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wesg
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #8 - Apr 2nd, 2022 at 3:40pm
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Did some calculations ....

An octagon of the same weight of a 1" OD .320 bore round, would be .9737 across the flats. The stiffness would be .048566 (rd) vs .048688 (oct).

Looks like the octagon has a tiny advantage in stiffness.
Being smaller in overall height, it also has a little less stress when used as a prybar. IOW, you could lean on it a bit more without permanently bending it, about 3%, than a rd barrel if you needed to use it to get some cinder blocks under your truck tire to get out of a ditch.
  
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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #9 - Apr 2nd, 2022 at 4:50pm
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SAG
  

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“There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse."

  Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #10 - Apr 2nd, 2022 at 5:35pm
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Doesn't really matter if the barrel will not shoot!
  

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n.r.davis
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #11 - Apr 5th, 2022 at 3:40pm
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Not so much Round or Octagon but an article about length and harmonics in "Precision Shooting". A Quality Company, started trimming down the length and measuring groups.  Found a spot where the groups tightened up.  So maybe leave the Barrel long, do the Tapping Test to find the Dead Spot and trim the length bit by bit.  More Coffee... David
  
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #12 - Apr 6th, 2022 at 10:24am
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Perhaps something to be said about barrel tuners on some rifles.
  
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Re: Barrel Profile Harmonics question
Reply #13 - Apr 17th, 2022 at 1:08pm
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SchwartzStock wrote on Apr 1st, 2022 at 8:24am:
Sine?

Personally I hate the look of a half round barrel and just pure logic says a octagon form is harder to bend than a round one.

Long barrels "drift" across the target slower especially in OH which can result in a bullet being in or out of the black. Shooters saw this a lot with service rifle competition using M1's and M14's. The heavier weight on the front end (similar to a longer barrel) of the M1 would result in bullets in the black vs out of the black with an M14 when comparing the sight picture when the round broke. he sights (muzzle) just drifted slower across the target.

Of course longer barrels also allow longer sight radius's and contribute to more precision in aiming...



Now you're into something I know something about. My experience is mostly with bullseye, or standard, pistol shooting, you know, with the turning targets at 25 yards, stationary targets at 50 yards, .45 ACP and .22 LR. However, the following applies equally to rifles, to include long range BPCR. Here is the dichotomy- longer sight radii are inherently more accurate, but they accentuate any visible shortcomings, therefore distracting the shooter, thereby lessening scores. Shorter sight radii mask visible errors, thereby helping shooters who are newbies, tired or shaky, or have recently had a soda, a cigarette, or are just inherently more shaky. Muzzle weights help some, but are really marginal. I never saw more than a few with additional weights on their .22 pistols. Here is my firm conclusion after many years of competition(excluding bench rest), rifle or pistol, if marginal aspects like sight radius, and barrel length, and muzzle weight are occupying your attention, you very much need to concentrate on fundamentals- breath control, trigger control, posture, recovery after the shot, and the most important, sight alignment. This applies to the M1 vs. M14 sight pictures also.
  
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