Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Crud precipitate when fluxing. (Read 2667 times)
condorsc
Full Member
***
Offline


NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA,
SCV Life

Posts: 210
Location: Beaufort, S.C.
Joined: Nov 13th, 2021
Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Jan 25th, 2022 at 1:04am
Print Post  
I am new to BPCR, having loaded 30-06 and .45 ACP for years, casting for them. I am currently shooting an 1884 Trapdoor and a Model 1867 Greek contract Rolling Block, .50-70. I have a large Lee lead furnace, bottom pour. I have been plagued by increasing amounts of sand or grit in lead the last year or two, forcing me to dipper pour. None of the lead was wheel weights, etc. I don't recall ever having this problem from when I started out in the '60s, not even using range lead. The topper came a couple weeks ago when casting some Lyman 515141AW bullets (Anybody know what AW stands for?). I was casting hot, around 900 degrees (didn't realize it was that hot until the following started). I was using 20-1 lead I got on the internet. Again I had to dipper the bullets because of sand/grit. Then, increasingly, there was a yellowish crud, resembling sulfur, in the fluxing waste. I mean a huge amount, maybe 6-8 times what you usually get. I cut the temp. down several times, all the way to 700 degrees, but the problem continued. I have bought new smelter lead from a metal supply house at times, but the last ore smelter in the U.S. closed down several years ago, so new lead will increasingly be imported and expensive. Has anyone had the grit or the yellow crud problem? I've cast a long time, but never seen anything like this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #1 - Jan 25th, 2022 at 1:06pm
Print Post  
Try this do it outside as your going to make more smoke than your wife will like.
Heat the lead up to between 750 and 800 F. now stir in about a pea size piece of bees wax or carnauba wax and stir it in until it burns to ash scrape off the top. From a pet store get some activated charcoal and poar it on top of the lead. let it stand for ten minutes or so as the charcoal holds moisture and you want that to cook off. Now after it is dry stir it in completely you will be amazed at the crud that will come to the surface with the charcoal. Scrape off the top again and add a little but more bees wax stir it in and try casting.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
condorsc
Full Member
***
Offline


NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA,
SCV Life

Posts: 210
Location: Beaufort, S.C.
Joined: Nov 13th, 2021
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2022 at 2:37pm
Print Post  
Interesting. I am certainly gonna try it. Any idea what the yellow stuff is? I do have about 150 pounds of once-used lead that was sheathing in a medical facility. I am going to use some of that after I try your remedy with the 20-1 lead. Any speculation on the sand/grit I am encountering? Have you experienced that?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Babits
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1151
Joined: Sep 27th, 2012
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #3 - Jan 25th, 2022 at 3:27pm
Print Post  
Sand and grit, being much lighter than lead, will (or should) float to the top, not sink to the bottom.   For something to sink to the bottom it has to be heavier than lead.    I think the yellowish cast on top may be cadmium contamination.

Rather than getting activated charcoal, you can do the same thing with sawdust.   Just make sure it is dry and stir it into the lead alloy.   It will smoke a lot and when done you will have "activated" charcoal on top of your lead.   Works great with bottom draw as you just leave on the surface and it will prevent further oxidation of the lead.

George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rgchristensen
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1189
Joined: Jan 2nd, 2014
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #4 - Jan 25th, 2022 at 6:23pm
Print Post  
Many scrap-metal places have x-raiy fluorescence devices which will tell the composition of metal alloys.

CHRIS
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
condorsc
Full Member
***
Offline


NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA,
SCV Life

Posts: 210
Location: Beaufort, S.C.
Joined: Nov 13th, 2021
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #5 - Jan 25th, 2022 at 11:55pm
Print Post  
George Babits wrote on Jan 25th, 2022 at 3:27pm:
Sand and grit, being much lighter than lead, will (or should) float to the top, not sink to the bottom.   For something to sink to the bottom it has to be heavier than lead.    I think the yellowish cast on top may be cadmium contamination.

Rather than getting activated charcoal, you can do the same thing with sawdust.   Just make sure it is dry and stir it into the lead alloy.   It will smoke a lot and when done you will have "activated" charcoal on top of your lead.   Works great with bottom draw as you just leave on the surface and it will prevent further oxidation of the lead.

George

I guess the "sand" WAS heavier, because the the bottom pour bullets were unusable. Dipping off the top was better, but the yellow stuff just kept getting worse. It wasn't just a yellow cast, or color, but an actual powder. The flux product was about 50% the usual grey stuff and 50% yellow powder. Jeez, I hope it isn't cadmium. That has a worse health reputation than mercury. As to using sawdust, I used to haunt several craft channels and they use sawdust for both lead and brass fluxing. I usually use candles to flux, but I have several pounds of pure yellow beeswax and that's what I was using here. Hmmm.....Thanks much for the comments and help.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Cat_Whisperer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


No 1, 9.3x74R

Posts: 3987
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #6 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 9:00am
Print Post  
THE best way of cleaning up alloys that I've found is to melt/flux in one pot and pour the whole pot full into another.  Re-heat/flux and pour it back.   

How does it work?  When a fluid changes direction it loses the particles in suspension.  (as when a river changes direction the sand and crud get deposited)

It also is FAST.
  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
Chief of Smoke
Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works
Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army
assra #9885
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4234
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #7 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 9:25am
Print Post  
Yes I have had a yellow film form and eventually turn to blue.
It indicates you have impurities like zinc in your mix.
Watch as the lead first starts to melt and scoop off the sludge before it gets too hot to melt.
The impurities have a higher melting temperature.
Therefore as soon as the lower melting lead and tin have melted you scoop off the impurities before they get hot enough to melt.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Babits
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1151
Joined: Sep 27th, 2012
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #8 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 9:50am
Print Post  
I'd say that whatever that "sand" is that is sinking to the bottom of the pot is, you ought to save it and have it assayed!!  The only minerals that would sink in molten lead are: various alloys of gold and platinum group minerals.  There are also some rare earth metals, mostly radioactive, that are heavier than lead and would sink.  I wouldn't expect any of these minerals to remain in properly smelted lead though.   

George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cuslog
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 263
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: Dec 29th, 2011
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #9 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 10:25am
Print Post  
Yes, I've had the same troubles - Green / yellow powder (lots of it) rising to the top and "dirt" that seemed to come out the bottom pour and migrate to the surface of cast bullets, making them look "dirty". Never did quite figure it out, though I "think" at least part of the problem was trying to "smelt" the raw lead in a too small (20 lb) pot and also having it too hot. The Lee bottom pour pots can / will get way too hot.
My problems went away with changing to another lead supply, built a PID temp controller and ladle pouring. Quite happy with my bullets now.
Still have 250 lbs of the under water cable that I've pre-smelted in a big (propane bottle) pot and poured into muffin tins - they all have quite a blue "hue" to them. Maybe Copper ? I don't know.
Link to the discussion I started on Cast Boolits, no real answers though. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
condorsc
Full Member
***
Offline


NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA,
SCV Life

Posts: 210
Location: Beaufort, S.C.
Joined: Nov 13th, 2021
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #10 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 3:03pm
Print Post  
cuslog's post exactly describes the yellow crud problem I was describing. Note the crud keeps building up even after you remove it initially. Folks might want to view the castboolits post, it shows the problem. Consensus so far is it's cadmium. Bad stuff.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Joe_S
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1108
Joined: Jun 29th, 2004
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #11 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 10:27pm
Print Post  
About using sawdust for fluxing: It works, but the burnt sawdust is very fine and more difficult to remove. I have been using wood chips from a router or planer, much larger, less dust, easier to skim off and works just as good as the finer sawdust. 
Joe S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ballardhepburnmich
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 598
Location: Scotts,mi.
Joined: May 20th, 2015
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #12 - Jan 26th, 2022 at 11:33pm
Print Post  
The yellow stuff sounds like zinc contamination to me. 
Lee Gibbs Pres.ASSRA
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #13 - Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:00am
Print Post  
Can you see the “sand and grit” inclusions in the lead you bought?  If so, you ran across a vendor who is unusually uncaring about his product and customers’ satisfaction.

I empty my pot after casting into an ingot mould and generally it’s only the last partial ingot that has any impurities in it.  Even then, most of the crud is a gray-to-black powder that falls out of the pot after the lead is out.

Just at a guess from your description, I would say that you are casting too hot.  I don’t know how accurate the Lyman thermometer I use is, but the range I cast at shows 700-750 degrees.  This temperature gives me a shiny surface after fluxing, with an increasing amount of silver-gray oatmeal on the top as casting progresses.  I push this aside when I fill the dipper, and generally that’s all I have to do when casting large bullets until the lead level is too low for the dipper.  I have little experience with a bottom-pour pot, and that mostly casting small or pistol bullets in multicavity moulds.

My old Organic Chemistry professor told us that whenever you melt something, there is decomposition.  In the case of lead, the decomposition is oxidation.  Lead oxides will keep taking up oxygen, forming a yellow monoxide (litharge) a red dioxide (red lead, or minium) and a number of increasingly oxidized species from lead peroxide through more highly oxidized (and more poorly characterized) oxides, that go in color from brown to gray to black.

The stirring of the pot, both in fluxing and ladling, with the heat in the walls of the pot, will ensure that there is a deposit of these oxides on the pot below the surface, as well as on top of the melt.  Depending on temperature and casting style, people will see “rust” forming in their pots, though without any associated pitting.  This is likely the red-lead oxide, perhaps stayed at this point by whatever fluxing technique is used.  The yellow litharge color can also be a temporary or more persistent impurity.  I’ve seen all these colors, but I’ve found that proper fluxing at the temperatures I cast at always results in a shiny surface and a couple tablespoons worth of charcoal-gray-to-black powder, which are the oxides produced by that particular melt.

So I would recommend preheating your mould, running at a lower temperature, scraping the sides and bottom of the pot when you flux, skimming off the black dust on top, and seeing what happens then.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
feren
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 18
Joined: Jan 27th, 2022
Re: Crud precipitate when fluxing.
Reply #14 - Feb 3rd, 2022 at 7:56pm
Print Post  
I thought the Marvelux flux took care of all the contaminants by floating them to the top to be skimmed off....  ?   Yes?   and of course the sides of the pot also have to be scrapped initially when the lead is melted to help bring everything to the top
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint