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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks? (Read 3047 times)
bohemianway
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Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Nov 22nd, 2021 at 10:46am
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Serious question: Is there a difference in materials/strength of the variations in Marlin Ballard breechblocks? They look the same but I have always viewed the cantilever Breechblock as a potential weak point in the Ballard design. And the few failures seen have also had the Block fail. 

Curious minds want to know,
Charles
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #1 - Nov 22nd, 2021 at 11:05am
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that all MB breechblocks were machined out of low carbon steel (pretty much all that was available at the time) and carburized (case hardened).
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #2 - Nov 22nd, 2021 at 7:09pm
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That was my understanding as well.  But I recall reading somewhere that the breechblocks for the pre-Marlin Ballards were cast of the same metal as the receivers.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #3 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 10:57am
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According to John Dutcher's book, the breech blocks on all Ballard rifles are the same material. Only difference is the 4 variations in design. The DST block, single trigger CF, single trigger reversible firing pin, and single trigger .22 RF #3 style. I have heard of a DST block with reversible firing pin, but not seen one. I've owned three #2's with DST, and all were CF only. Assume they just grabbed a CF DST block for those special order #2's. One was .38 Long, and other two were .32 Long.
PS-The #3 .22 rimfire block is the only breech block without a firing pin retaining screw. Have to split the blocks to replace a firing pin, which always puzzled me.
  

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Crown-C
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #4 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:01pm
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Val,
I have a Ballard DST block that has the reversible firing pin so a few at least may be out there. Serial number is 16403
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:44pm by Crown-C »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #5 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:27pm
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Crown-C wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:01pm:
Val,
I have a Ballard DST block that has the reversible firing pin so a few at least may be out there. Serial number is 16403


Good to know there's more out there! With that serial number it must be a "Marlin Firearms Co." marked receiver too.
  

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bobw
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #6 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:28pm
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Vall, I"m just starting to study Ballard's so really green on them.  Have this in my shop now, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is also a double set with reversible firing pin.  Don't know the serial number but if you want it, I can get it next week.
Bob
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #7 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:36pm
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bobw wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:28pm:
Vall, I"m just starting to study Ballard's so really green on them.  Have this in my shop now, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is also a double set with reversible firing pin.  Don't know the serial number but if you want it, I can get it next week.
Bob


That's an odd breech block Bob. It appears to have a full length DST plate, instead of the usual short plate that stops shy of covering the entire bottom of the breech block halves. It also has one rectangular opening for the dual firing pin system, instead of the twin holes I usually see.
I wonder if this is a very early breech block, as those I own with very low numbers have the full trigger plate. But haven't seen the rectangle hole before, and wonder if it was possibly modified?
The firing pin screw location is correct for a reversible firing pin breech block also.
  

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bobw
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #8 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:47pm
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Vall, next week I’ll get the serial number.  I am assuming it is on the inside since I did not see it on the outside?  I am going to disassemble the assembly but have not yet because the lever is dropping and am making new pins to see if thing tighten up first.
Bob

I’ll also get some pictures of the inside.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #9 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:50pm
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bobw wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 7:47pm:
Vall, next week I’ll get the serial number.  I am assuming it is on the inside since I did not see it on the outside?  I am going to disassemble the assembly but have not yet because the lever is dropping and am making new pins to see if thing tighten up first.
Bob


The serial number is on the top tail of the two block halves. On each half, and should match each side. If it's not there, then somebody has removed it for some reason.
  

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bobw
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #10 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 8:06pm
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I thought it should be on the outside.  Guess it has been erased then!
Bob
  

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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #11 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 8:34pm
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Bobw,
The serial number should be all the way to the rear of the block tail. It curves there and your photo may not catch it, especially if it’s a low serial number block. Might check that first when you get the chance to look at it. I’ve never found any serial numbers inside the two halves of the block. I have seen a few that have had the sn removed I presume from polishing.
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2021 at 10:27pm by Crown-C »  

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bobw
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #12 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 10:25pm
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Thanks, I’ll take a closer look next week.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #13 - Nov 24th, 2021 at 10:29am
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Yes, you'll need to look at the tail of the blocks from the rear angle to see the serial number. Since your block appears to be of the very early variation, I suppose it's possible it may have been ordered as a replacement breech block, and might not have a serial number.
These early style breech blocks fit somewhat odd, as the whole trigger plate sits below the bottom of the receiver, and appears to be a poor fit compared to later flush fitting  receivers. I have two Ballard rifles with this style trigger plate, and it appears Marlin added the trigger plate to the breech blocks without milling the blocks to recess them. So the completed DST blocks sit the thickness of the plate below the action. And unlike later DST blocks the trigger plates are full length of the breech block bottoms.
You can see the way they sit on my Pope takedown Ballard action here:

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Re: Cast vs Forged but what about Breechblocks?
Reply #14 - Dec 1st, 2021 at 10:02pm
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Thanks guys, but I see no serial number on the blocks anywhere along the top, or to the rear, on the back of the tails.  It does appear to be ground or coarse filed along this entire area.
Bob
  

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