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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Advice on barrels? (Read 4495 times)
Scota4570
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Advice on barrels?
Sep 15th, 2021 at 1:44pm
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I recently bought a high wall in 32-40.  I got lots of goodies, brass bullets molds, dies, breech seater, and the original factory barrel.  I have a Unertal 20X scope already. 

The barrel on the rifle is a relined Winchester #3 octagon.  The groove diameter, as measured by a slug, is 0.324".  The bore although new, feels rough. 

The second barrel, original to the rifle,  is an unmodified Winchester #3 round barrel.  It measures 0.321".  It looks shiny new and feels smooth. The throat is as originally made.      

Based on  the fact that none of the molds cast a bullet large enough for the octagon barrel, it would be a breech seat only situation even with a custom mold, I think the octagon barrel is scrap as made.  My intuition says put the original round barrel back on and try it.   

The octagon barrel might be suitable for reboring to 38-55 at some point.

The throat on the round barrel is as made by Winchester with the abrupt taper and no parallel section.  Should I leave it alone or "fix" it.   

Thanks in advance,
Scot

  
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bpjack
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #1 - Sep 15th, 2021 at 2:19pm
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What is your goal?   An original barrel is probably 16 twist and will need something 190gr or under most likely.  That might not be optimal for a bench target rifle.  What is the twist on the octagon?  If it is faster, I would look into finding the right mold and possibly lapping the bore if you think the roughness is affecting accuracy.  If it is brand new, look into shooting some jacketed bullets to break it in.  Badger recommended doing that for that BPCR barrels.

JAck
  

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Scota4570
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #2 - Sep 15th, 2021 at 4:45pm
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bpjack wrote on Sep 15th, 2021 at 2:19pm:
What is your goal?   An original barrel is probably 16 twist and will need something 190gr or under most likely.  That might not be optimal for a bench target rifle.  What is the twist on the octagon?  If it is faster, I would look into finding the right mold and possibly lapping the bore if you think the roughness is affecting accuracy.  If it is brand new, look into shooting some jacketed bullets to break it in.  Badger recommended doing that for that BPCR barrels.

JAck


Cast bullets off the bench into tiny groups is the goal.  Hopefully that will happen with 13 gr 4227, first trip to the range.  Wink

I would like to have the option to shoot fixed cartridges.  I have one mold that is almost bore sized, a cartridge using that bullet does not chamber.

Both barrels are 1:16"

In my experience a cast bullet must be at least hair over bore size.  Undersized bullets gas cut, lead and shoot awful.  Several of the molds that came with this rifle are bore riding except for the base band or are tapered.  I assume they are intended for breech seating.  Even so, they are undersized at the base.   

I normally use Accurate Molds for weird stuff.  He is 10 weeks backlogged right now.   

The previous owner could not get decent accuracy out of either barrel.   

So, the ultimate question is this, do I have any reason to expect tiny groups out of the oversized bore, given the molds I have?  Should I even bother? 

  
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Sure shot
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #3 - Sep 15th, 2021 at 5:08pm
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You should be able to find cast bullets meant for an 8 mm sized at .324, or a mold.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #4 - Sep 15th, 2021 at 5:18pm
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Based on personal experience you want to be over groove diameter and not that of the bore. Myself I have found +2 thousandths / 1 thousandths per side over groove diameter should work very well for you with either barrel if the insides are still good. Bullet length should be 3 times the diameter of groove for a 16 twist. Abit longer if of a spitzer bullet design with 5 or 6 diameter ogive's. 14.2 grains of 300MP is a good place to start and the average velocity should be around 1474 fps while also being breech seated and the powder also tends to like magnum primers or Federal 210's.
  

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Scota4570
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #5 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 12:19am
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Sorry, slip on my part, I meant groove diameter. 

A bullet that matches groove diameter can not be loaded in a cartridge and fit in the chamber.  So, a bullet 0.002" over, would be a strictly breech seating deal. And, I'd have to make or buy a bastard size mold.   

To my sensibilities a rifle with a grossly oversized groove diameter is pretty useless for the intended purpose.  I have roughly $500 worth of bullet molds that are useless for this barrel, but appear OK for the other barrel.  If somebody had lined that barrel for me he and I  would have had a very serious problem.   

My original question was to determine if there was something I did not understand about the 32-40 cartridge and how to load for it.  I was thinking I was missing something.  It appears that I am on track.  I will forget about messing with the oversized barrel.   

I will go ahead and remove it and and put the original barrel back on.  The original is made to the correct dimensions.  The old owner said it did not shoot well.  It had a burr on the crown and ham fisted attempt to crown it.   I recrowned it properly already because it bothered me.      


  
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oneatatime
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #6 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 12:38am
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Perhaps it was intended for use with black powder and paper patched bore sized bullets.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #7 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 10:11am
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The replacement if I understand this right could now be an 8MM barrel and maybe not intended to be a 32-40.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #8 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 10:21am
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The replacement if I understand this right could now be an 8MM and a .323 groove diameter barrel and maybe not intended to be a 32-40.
  

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Scota4570
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #9 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 11:20am
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The previous owner was only interested in black powder.  He got terrible accuracy.  BP and 32-40 is a fickle combination.  The barrel is marked 32-40.  An 8mm-40 would be a bad choice.   

I see no reason to make a barrel oversized except sloppy workmanship.
  
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #10 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 11:24am
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Quality Cast Bullets ( (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) ) makes a 180 grain .323/8mm bullet @ .926" length.  It is coated and gas-checked.  Give it a try it in both barrels.  While 14g of IMR4227 works well in my rifle, I also had good results with 19g of IMR4198 and 23g or IMR3031.  Good luck.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #11 - Sep 16th, 2021 at 1:24pm
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Not sure how it could be sloppy workmanship when barrels and liners are already rifled. I have bored out basebands in existing moulds for friends with .323 grooves. They are very competitive when being breech seated using smokeless powder. Have you tried seating any bullets and knocking them out to see how they might or may not actually engrave a bullet. There is not allot of difference between a .321 or a .323 groove or even the bore and you might already have something that might work for you. If have something that might work breech seat a bullet, put a primer only in an empty case, cock the rifle and fire the primer, count of 15 seconds and drop the block. If no pressure is going beyond the base of the bullet it will push the case back out. Don't stand behind it, I have had one come flying back out but that is not real typical to have taken place. 

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« Last Edit: Sep 16th, 2021 at 1:36pm by JLouis »  

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Scota4570
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #12 - Sep 17th, 2021 at 12:27pm
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Not sure how it could be sloppy workmanship when barrels and liners are already rifled.

Easy, the liner was rifled after it was installed.  It is not a button liner, like the Redman liners.   

I just slugged it again with a larger slug.  I get up to 0.3255" and down to 0.3242".   

I also noticed the previous guy marred the action with the wrench.  That definitely tells me about he "gunsmith" who did the work.    

I'm having  buyer's regret.
  
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #13 - Sep 17th, 2021 at 5:22pm
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Scota4570 wrote on Sep 16th, 2021 at 11:20am:
The previous owner was only interested in black powder.  He got terrible accuracy.  BP and 32-40 is a fickle combination.  The barrel is marked 32-40.  An 8mm-40 would be a bad choice.  

I see no reason to make a barrel oversized except sloppy workmanship. 


I have several rifles with large bores. Here is a test target from a Remington barrel that measures .326. Twist is 16.  The bullets were Pope style and tapered at about 190 grains. Distance was 200 yards. Has not been a handicap for me. 

Will be fun to see how your original barrel performs. 
  

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JLouis
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Re: Advice on barrels?
Reply #14 - Sep 17th, 2021 at 6:03pm
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Thanks Joe and you are correct it was not uncommon for original rifles to have a larger bore. Have you ever had any experiences with a cut rifled liner that had to be installed and then cut that would be a first for me.
  

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