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Mick B
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PP bullet dia
Aug 27th, 2021 at 9:08pm
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Just out of boredom I'm considering having another crack of shooting PP bullets in both my Stevens 44-5 which is in 40-60 Maynard, and my Meacham 40-65. In the past I tried PP in my 45-90 but with no good results, at least not as good as the greasers. Left over from these experiments I have a quantity of paper which I think is called "Onion Skin"  I obtained this from BACO about 5 years ago. 
What I want to know is what dia mould I need that BACO might have in stock. Both rifles have different barrels, ie, Krieger and GM if this makes a difference. To the best of my knowledge both are the same dimensions internally, 16-1, 400, 408.
Mike.
  
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beltfed
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #1 - Aug 28th, 2021 at 11:27pm
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Mick
Take a look at the BACO 403380E. Works in a std 40-65 chamber. I don't know about the 40-60 Maynard. Depends on chamber/freebore, leade dimensions.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #2 - Aug 29th, 2021 at 12:21am
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I have been playing with PP for just two years maybe and the one thing I know for sure is that you need to do a chamber cast for each rifle to see what the diameter is just in front of the case.  I try to use a dual diameter bullet that patches close to this diameter with the nose riding section being a snug but not tight fit as I am using the bullets to hunt with.  Paper only costs a few dollars so don't worry about using what you have although there is nothing wrong with the BACO paper.  I think my Baco paper adds 0.007 to my diameter if memory serves me correct.  By casting the chamber you can tell how long the base diameter section needs to be when seated 0.10 to 0.15 deep.  Hopefully your fired brass can be loaded without sizing if the chamber was cut snug enough.  I can also say that I have had much easier results with blackpowder versus smokeless.  Beltfed/Arnie is the go to guy on dual diameter PP bullets. Tom
  
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Mick B
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #3 - Aug 29th, 2021 at 9:03pm
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I'm not sure which of my two rifles will be used in the PP experiments as I intend to sell one of them, whichever sells first I will keep the other.
Sometime in the near future both rifles will be offered for sale on this site providing I can find someone with the computer smarts to place the add for me, with good pictures, I wouldn't have a clue how to do it, my 7 yo grandson is more computer literate than me. 
Mike.
  
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Mick B
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #4 - Aug 29th, 2021 at 10:47pm
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Beltfed
I just tried the BACO web site and could not locate the 403380E mould, it also looks like every PP mould listed is also out of stock.
Mike.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #5 - Aug 30th, 2021 at 8:05am
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You can measure your paper thickness with a vernier or caliper. Two full wraps is four thicknesses added to the diameter of your bullet.
« Last Edit: Sep 1st, 2021 at 10:13am by SSShooter »  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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beltfed
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #6 - Aug 30th, 2021 at 10:04am
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Mick,
Baco does list the mold 
Item Number:  JIM403380E
You have to go thru the sequence:
Bullet molds
Baco molds
Baco PP molds
36-41 cal molds

They also list the JIM405390E, which is the same length as the 403380E, but a shorter base/major diameter band for chambers with less freebore.
Yes, you will see that Baco lists most molds as "out of stock"
They operate mostly on an order basis,
and then they will "Q" you up in line for when they have mold blocks available to cut the mold.
OH, and you can adjust the Diameters of the PP molds to suit 
your particular chamber.
As has been said, also, you Need to get dimensions of your
FF case I.D., Freebore length and diameter, Leade dimensions and the groove and land diameter of the rifle in order to get a proper fit of the bullet, along with the paper thickness. A chamber cast is the best way to get all that.
beltfed/arnie
  
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SSShooter
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #7 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 10:09am
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From what I understand the diameter of a straight  PP bullet should be 0.005" smaller than the bore diameter. In my 0.400" barrel that would be 0.395". Two wraps with the appropriate paper brings it up to bore diameter.

However, am not sure about the DEPP bullets being offered. For instance, the BACo DEPP mold Arnie just purchased is about 0.002" larger than bore diameter on the base and 0.010" smaller in the body. Don't know if Arnie arrived at these dimensions from trial & error testing or is something from 'common knowledge'.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Bulseyetom
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #8 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 1:03pm
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Arnie will most likely chime in again but he taught me somewhat how to get a dual diameter bullet to shoot best by giving me tons of advise here on the forum as to why he was doing what. Basically, the nose riding section is easy as you want the patched bullet to be snug but not tight.  The trick part and why my bullet probably won't work in the next guy's rifle is that the length and diameter of the freebore area of the chamber vary.  Then there is the fired case inside neck dimension.  Ideally, you start with a barrel blank and have it cut with a proven chamber but us guys shooting for fun most likely buy a rifle ready to shoot.  A chamber cast must be made to see how long and what diameter the freebore is.  That is the diameter I think you need to strive for.  So for instance if the bore is 0.408 and the freebore is 0.410 and 0.300 long, then you specify a dual diameter with the base section 0.400 long or a tad longer that will patch to 0.410.  If the moon and the stars line up, that diameter will allow you to load a pp bullet without resizing your case and be a slip fit finger seated.  With black powder the powder and wad column keep the bullet from going in to deep.  Now I know nothing about sizing patched bullets but I think Arnie does.  I just wrap mine as cast and let fly, but I am happy with a group that the big boys would never be satisfied with.  My path has often been frustrating but I can now shoot groups that rival my gg bullets.  The one thing for sure is that paper patching has kept my mind and trigger finger busy during these pandemic times.  Have fun.  Tom
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #9 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 1:11pm
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Since the BPCR site is dead, I will post this discussion which I found very helpful in choosing paper.  It is the work of Arnie and many thanks to him for providing the info.  Tom

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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #10 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 2:52pm
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BE Tom,
You did a good job of describing basics of need to do the chamber cast and then fit the DDEPP bullet "patch to" dimensions to the chamber. As said, important to fit the base band/major diameter length and diameter to the FF case I.D./ and Freebore diameter, along with the length from the seated depth in case to the end of the freebore. 
The body diameter will be such as when patched it comes to a slip fit on the lands.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Mick B
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #11 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 9:44pm
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I'm beginning to think that my plans of trying PP bullets in my .40 cal rifles is moving towards the "too hard basket ".
I saw an article on You Tube the other day submitted by a guy with a M/L target rifle using PP bullets. he described his PP ideas and how after patching the bullets he ran them through a sizing die so they were a nice slip fit into the barrel. He was not using a false muzzle, or bullet  starter, like in the old days.
He then shot a 100 yd group of about 2.5" which he seemed quite happy with. This didn't seem all that impressive to to me.
I was thinking of a bullet mould about .395", patching it up to .400" and breech seating it, or seating it just into the case mouth so the loaded case seats it into the rifling, would this work OK ?.
If 2.5" groups is all I can expect I might give the whole idea  a miss, my rifle will shoot better than that with greasers any day of the week.
Cheers
Mike.
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #12 - Sep 1st, 2021 at 11:09pm
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It is something that is new and different but not as hard as it sounds.  The key is fitting the bullet to your rifle and a chamber cast will give you everything you need for data.  I had never done a chamber cast and was frightened but it is easy as pie.  Arnie can post pictures of ragged one hole groups and after several changes in my procedures I can shoot 5 shot groups into 1 1/2" at 50 yards consistently in my 40-70 Hepburn with iron sights.  That is about as good as I can see and with gg bullets going into 1" at 50 yards.  Tom
  
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Mick B
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Re: PP bullet dia
Reply #13 - Sep 2nd, 2021 at 5:51am
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Tom
That seems more like an add for greasers rather than paper patching. The little testing I did with PP bullets was with my 45.70 and my 45.90, the results I got were not quite as good s what I was getting with my usual target load using greasers, so being a quitter I quit. One advantage I though there might be with PP bullets as that they can be swaged from lead bar rather than cast from molten lead. Unfortunately the gear to do this is quite expensive. I believe another method that was used by the old buffalo hunters was to cast the bullets and then bring them up to the final dimensions using a thing called a pound die using a hammer or something. I think it may be possible to purchase swaged bullets in the US but the cost of shipping may be a bit much, such bullets are not available here that I know of.
Cheers, keep safe.
Mike
  
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