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John Boy
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Throw Back … Harry Pope
Aug 13th, 2021 at 12:21pm
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Green_Frog
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #1 - Aug 13th, 2021 at 2:41pm
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Thanks, John Boy.  I’ve consciously avoided Facebook for several reasons, but that was worth making an exception to my own rule. There is a paperback book somewhere in my stuff, a collection of Lucian Cary’s writings.  He too was an interesting guy and did some shooting a lot of us would enjoy.   

IIRC, he built what was supposed to be a combination outdoor office (for his writing) and shooting shack.  He admitted that his writing often got short shrift.  He described having Pope build both a centerfire and a 22 LR rifle for him, both on Ballard actions, and arousing the ire of other customers who apparently had their jobs pushed back when Pope built them.

Froggie
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #2 - Aug 13th, 2021 at 2:49pm
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I revisit Lucian Cary's J.M.Pyne stories frequently. I never grow tired of re-reading them. Guy Lautard's compendium of those stories in book form is long out of print and commanding big bucks now (relatively speaking), and I'm glad i have a copy even if it is getting a bit dog-eared.

I kind of wish someone would chronicle the careers of Shoyen, Peterson, Zischang [sp], et al as well as Pope has been chronicled.
  
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rkba2nd
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #3 - Aug 13th, 2021 at 3:38pm
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Longevity, and self promotion has a lot to do with it, and not meant to take anything away from the man. Both are a good thing! There is a very good article in the 1971 Gun Digest by John Dutcher regarding the barrel maker George Schoyen, and his successor Axel Peterson and his son. There are also a number of good articles about Axel Peterson in the American Rifleman.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #4 - Aug 13th, 2021 at 7:07pm
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rkba2nd wrote on Aug 13th, 2021 at 3:38pm:
Longevity, and self promotion has a lot to do with it, and not meant to take anything away from the man. Both are a good thing! There is a very good article in the 1971 Gun Digest by John Dutcher regarding the barrel maker George Schoyen, and his successor Axel Peterson and his son. There are also a number of good articles about Axel Peterson in the American Rifleman.


Couldn't agree more as to the reason for Pope's notoriety. Considering he started later than many of the other great barrel makers, and great custom single shot rifle makers. But lived into the mid 20th Century, well beyond the others.
In addition Pope was a prolific writer, and often wrote of his greatness in a matter of fact style. I too wont take anything away from how great Pope was at barrel making. But considering how much better the others were at doing the entire gun, yet still make extremely accurate barrels; they're higher on my list as all around great gunsmiths; vs. just great barrel makers. 
Pope of course built other items besides barrels, and his accessories like scope rings, molds, etc. were all excellent quality. But in such limited production, because Pope seemed to always fall back on what he liked doing most; great barrels.
Great gunsmiths, and barrel makers like Schoyen, AW Peterson, Zischang, etc. seemed to be very modest, or at least let their work speak for them, rather than write about themselves.
And with the way Lucian Carey exalted Pope and his work, there's no wonder anything he wanted Pope to build got pushed ahead of everyone else!
  

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BillOregon
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #5 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 7:52am
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That really was a wonderful read, John Boy. Thank you for posting the link. 
I have long wondered what it was about Pope's barrels that made them so accurate.
  
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #6 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 9:12am
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Someone once said, "If you want to be really, really famous, you need an agent."  With all the respect due Harry Pope's talents, Carey was his agent.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #7 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 10:32am
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Pope and Carey were very good friends. Carey helped Pope allot in his daily life. With food and other necessities and if Carey was favored it was deservingly so. Carey also bought Pope a drill press and one Pope could not afford. True friends do take care of each other in life and it was Pope who wanted to make the rifles for Carey and not the other way around. When and why he did it was simply all up to Pope and not the business of anyone else. Including those who were still waiting in line to have their own done.
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #8 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 10:53am
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The fact that Carey was a fan of Pope is undenighable as is the fact that Pope made some of the best barrels ever made. there are many records set by Pope made rifles. I have had the chance to shoot the Carey Pope Winchester that was the last full rifle that Pope built and is is a fine rifle. 
Having said all that I tend to believe Roland when he said that he could shoot very good groups with his Pope but could take his Schoyen rifle out the next day and make just as small groups with it. Bottom line every barrel maker is capable of making some hummers and some not so. Letters prove that barrels were sent back to Pope to be reworked because they wouldn't perform.
Mostly we listen to Carey because he was one of the few who wrote in the modern age. Also a number of unfavorable facts of Popes life have been minimized by some of our historians who saw no reason to drag Pope's name through the mud.

40 Rod
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #9 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 11:02am
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I doubt Pope just made barrels for Carey without Carey wanting them. Carey indeed requested those barrels, and as a close friend often does, Pope moved Carey's work to the head of the line.
Pope was pretty much a recluse, and was untrusting of most people he didn't know, thinking their attempts to befriend him had ulterior motives. He was justified in some of this by having helped others learn and then they became competitors. Pope saw this as stealing business from him, and those people became enemies. 
And for those who wanted to just be friends with Pope, he saw these "fan friends" as just an incumbrance to his time, and didn't want the distractions to his busy schedule. In the case of true friends, Pope was happy to see them, and take time for them. But it seemed his general grumpy attitude limited the number of friends he held closely.
Carey was indeed a true friend, and Pope appreciated all he did monetarily, and in his writings to promote Pope, and his work. Anyone who ever even slightly said anything less than glowing about Pope's barrels would likely never get another Pope barrel made for them! This has been well documented when CW Rowland mentioned liking his Schoyen barreled rifles better than his record setting Pope Ballard. Pope never made him another barrel, and refused to even answer letters written to him from Rowland.
  

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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #10 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 10:11am
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" I kind of wish someone would chronicle the careers of Shoyen, Peterson, Zischang et all.." 

Unfortunately there is not allot of information out there that I have been able to find about the above Gentleman over the years. They too have a rightful place in History and Schuetzen Bob might be one who has some information in regards to their lives. 
  

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John Boy
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #11 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 11:00am
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Top of barrel one line "GEO. C. SCHOYEN DENVER. COLO." 

Regarded by many as one of the finest gunsmiths of his era, George Shoyen came to the United States from Norway in the late 1860s.  Initially settling in Chicago, he was forced west due to the devastation of the Great Chicago Fire of 1871.  Settling in Denver, Colorado, he soon found employment at the Carlos Goves' Denver Armory, which was sold to Schoyen and his business partner D.W. Butt in 1884.  The firm soon gained a deserving reputation for producing a product that was not only highly accurate, but aesthetically pleasing.  Requests for Schoyen's work came from across the world, and included such personalities as William "Buffalo Bill" Cody and Anne Oakley.  Even into the 21st Century, Schoyen's works continue to hold their value as highly desirable pieces.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #12 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 11:05am
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A.O. Zischang

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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #13 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 11:06am
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John, You have said more than enough on this subject. Thread is closed as far as I am concerned.
Chuck
  
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Re: Throw Back … Harry Pope
Reply #14 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 11:24am
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John Boy thanks for the information. I have always felt Schoyen was one of the best and Zischang's work was very unique. His stock designs and hooked butt plates were one of a kind and his double set trigger Borchardt rifles. Are still very desirable to have in ones collection.
  

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