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Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 (Read 14248 times)

SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2932 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #45 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 3:55pm	Print Post
	S99VG wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2021 at 12:16pm: Yeah, we've talked about this one before. I'll have to start compiling information on the 38-55 Remington. It isn't easy to find! Do you mean the 38-50 Remington-Hepburn, which is commonly called just the 38-50. Lots of info available. Excellent round for BP shooting out to 1000yd. Rick Moritz is one of the top BPCR shooters in the country using one. Requires a fast-twist barrel (12") to shoot the heavy bullets needed to be competitive at 500m or longer distances. On the positive side, if it doesn't work for you for long distances, cut everything back (barrel & cases) and make it into a 38-40 Remington Hepburn for Schuetzen.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 4036 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #46 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 4:08pm	Print Post
	But do get Gail's view on putting it in an original 44 1/2.


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #47 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 5:12pm	Print Post
	Dellet wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 1:37pm: S99VG wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 12:28pm: Dellet wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 11:41am: Are you looking for a traditional cartridge you can compete with, or just something to shoot? Thanks, sage advice! Both. Having said that it looks to me like the 38-55 is it for the 44 1/2. But there's a bunch of this stuff I know little about. I would get a good look at the rules for whatever it is I wanted to compete in. I would sit down and take a good look at bullet designs and twist rates. See if there would be an advantage other than being the only one there shooting one. I would be tempted to put together a breech seated 44-40 or 44-40 XL. Pretty sure you could get the XL past the hammer on a 44 1/2. With a bit of planning, a 300 grain+ bullet might be possible. I know a 44-40 was offered for the model 44, and I think also the 44 1/2. Either way I know a .471 base diameter cartridge has been used in a 44 1/2.


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #48 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 5:14pm	Print Post
	SSShooter wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 3:55pm: S99VG wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2021 at 12:16pm: Yeah, we've talked about this one before. I'll have to start compiling information on the 38-55 Remington. It isn't easy to find! Do you mean the 38-50 Remington-Hepburn, which is commonly called just the 38-50. Lots of info available. Excellent round for BP shooting out to 1000yd. Rick Moritz is one of the top BPCR shooters in the country using one. Requires a fast-twist barrel (12") to shoot the heavy bullets needed to be competitive at 500m or longer distances. On the positive side, if it doesn't work for you for long distances, cut everything back (barrel & cases) and make it into a 38-40 Remington Hepburn for Schuetzen. Yes, my goof. At the minimum I would like to know what the base diameter and lenght of the cartridge is.


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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1786 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #49 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 8:23pm	Print Post
	Comparison between the 38-55 BMW, the 38-50RH and the 38-40RH: Rim Base neck case lgth OAL 38-55 0.506 .422 .392 2.12 2.51 38-50 0.535 .454 ..392 2.23 3.07 38-40 0.537 .454 .395 1.77 2.32 30-40K 0.540 .457 ---- ------ ----- It is again noted that the 38-50 is about 10 percent larger capacity than the 38-55BMW. Note, I added the 30-40USA/Krag because the 38-50 and the 38-40 are made from this case so the Rim and Base dia will be such. So, the base dia at 457 is 0.035" larger than the 38-55 at 0.422. That is about 0.0175" on a side thinner barrel wall. So there are the numbers. Consider that we are not/or should not be "firewalling" any of these cartridges. AND there are no "modern" factory hi pressure factory loads available for the Rem Hep cartridges. I shoot only BP or BP level smokeless powder loads in these rifles. If you are only looking at smokeless cast bullet loads , then perhaps the 38-55 will be "plenty" for you, especially if using bullets only up to 280 gr. beltfed/arnie


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #50 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 9:28pm	Print Post
	Thanks and I just found this too: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links); And no, I am not looking at hot rodding the round or my 44 1/2. I am just interested in what might be considered the top end of the rifle for long range work. And, of course all this makes one aware why Paul Shuttleworth modified the basic 44 1/2 design into the CPA.


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1139 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #51 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 10:42pm	Print Post
	Sometimes it’s best just to go to the source. If I read this correctly you could have your Ideal rifle rebored to any of the standard Stevens offerings, or even a 40-70 Ballard. The 44-40 and the necked down 38-40 were also offered with a base diameter of .471”. “Which has the greatest diameter of any .38 calibre”


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #52 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 11:12pm	Print Post
	Heck yeah, you can’t beat original source material. Thanks for putting it up!


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 4036 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #53 - Aug 4^th, 2021 at 11:32pm	Print Post
	Well, Gail said no on the 40-63/40-70 Ballard so is this the result of lessons learned in the past? These are the same base size as the 38-40/44-40.


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Dellet Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1139 Joined: May 19^th, 2017	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #54 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 12:30am	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 11:32pm: Well, Gail said no on the 40-63/40-70 Ballard so is this the result of lessons learned in the past? These are the same base size as the 38-40/44-40. This is where I’m not sure of this being for the 44 or 44 1/2. The 44 is actually easier to insert a longer/ larger diameter cartridge, but has a weaker action. The 44 1/2 can apparently withstand the pressure, if you can get the cartridge in. For what it’s worth, the 7mm Mauser is .471” as is the .257” Roberts. With no rim, it clears the hammer. The 44-40 or 38-40 being an inch shorter than the 40-70, would probably clear the hammer of the 44 1/2. Being a Black powder cartridge it was probably fine in either action. I find it interesting that Stevens seems willing to chamber a rifle in 40-70, but was not willing to offer the cartridge on initial sale. That’s why questioned whether I was reading that correctly.


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #55 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 2:13am	Print Post
	Hopefully this won't sound too stupid, but what would happen if you opened the 38-55 up into a 40-caliber? The base looks big enough. I ask this beause it seems like 38-calibers in cast lead might be a dead end in achieving distance and a step up in bullet size might make a difference. Or am I just talking out my hat?
	« Last Edit: Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:31am by S99VG »

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gnoahhh Oldtimer Offline Posts: 918 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Joined: Mar 31^st, 2010	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #56 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 8:32am	Print Post
	I think now you're splitting hairs, Jeff. Unless your plans include shooting out past 400 yards I believe you would be very well served by going with the .38-55 and be done with it. Were it me I would select a faster-than-normal twist barrel to accommodate somewhat heavier than "normal" bullets if you chose to do so for a bit more longer range performance (which would also handle normal bullets just fine for "regular" shooting). Funny how rifle loonies have strived to re-invent the wheel for the last century but often seem to come full circle back to stuff that was worked out in the 19th century. You want long range efficiency? Scout up one of the International Martini's in .30-06 that Harry Pope had a hand in making for the U.S. team. (And plain base cast bullets be darned!) Joking of course, but on the other hand an extremely long heavy .30 PB cast bullet pushed to the elastic limits of the alloy would carry pretty well a heckuva lot farther than intuitively possible.


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Sure shot Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1002 Location: East central Iowa Joined: Jun 22^nd, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #57 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 8:56am	Print Post
	I would build a .28-30, 32-40, or a 35-55 for your 44 1/2. For a larger cartridge I’d buy a highwall, CPA, or rolling block, or ? You can’t have too many rifles right?


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S99VG Oldtimer Offline Posts: 513 Location: CA Joined: Feb 1^st, 2020	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #58 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:34am	Print Post
	gnoahh and Sure shot - absolutely right on both of your perspectives! As for the 38-55, it looks like it is pretty much the terminal cartridge for the 44 1/2 and ultimate range will likely have to come with tweaking loads, components and barrel twist - though the 38-50 still sounds interesting if it could fit. As for the 44 1/2, I have a 044 1/2 that some day will get a 28-30 barrel and for having more single shots the next one just might be a CPA. As they say with Stevens, "you never can have too many barrels" PS - or a ballard if one happened to come my way....
	« Last Edit: Aug 5^th, 2021 at 10:12am by S99VG »

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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1786 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Looking for a Maximum Range Cartridge for 44 1/2 Reply #59 - Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:58am	Print Post
	As GNoah suggested For the 38-55 I would go with a 12 twist barrel that will enable you to shoot a greater choice of bullets up to 1.4" long/335-345gr. I will work with the usual 250 to 280 gr bullets as well as longer ones for better performance at distance. beltfed/arnie
	« Last Edit: Aug 5^th, 2021 at 11:31am by beltfed »

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