My guns are all shooters and I like rifles that have been relined to shoot available ammo particularly the many 32 rim fire single shots relined to 22lr. How do you view or value this alteration for function? Does it destroy value or increase value?

Here's what I see at most gun shows about the values of various collector firearms. Originals with bores in shootable condition will always bring the highest prices. Originals with poor bores always bring the least value, and many collectors will simply not buy those with poor bores, unless they're extremely rare guns.
A relined collector guns, with a good liner, properly installed will have decreased value, but usually not more than about 15-20% less than the all original bore equal rifle.
People who want to shoot their collectable rifles will always prefer a good relined bore to a junk bore.

There’s also the matter of relative liquidity.

Finding the discriminating collector who insists on original condition but regards a shot-out barrel as “honest wear” and is still willing to pay top dollar might be a tougher search than finding someone willing to pay a little less for a “shooter” in otherwise original condition.  The wait to find this person might be somewhat more entertaining if you can shoot your collector’s item while the search goes on.

If the barrel is shootable, I generally won’t reline it.  Every gun doesn’t have to be a target rifle.  But if the bore is a sewer pipe, I’ll reline it.  I’ll try to reproduce the original caliber, unless ammunition is unobtainable and/or of no particular interest.

I haven't been long in the single shot biz but I have been involved with a variety of other firearms for decades.  I think marlinnguy hit the nail on the head. An original rifle in factory condition will always comand the highest price but when seen from a practical standpoint these guns are getting very old and finding one with a relined barrel, to me, seems like an ever increasing proposition when shopping for a good rifle these days.  To take this one step further, how about the value of a replacement barrel?  There certainly were gunsmiths of merit in the past who's barrels add considerable value to the price of a rifle.  Pope comes to mind as the king of that hill.  But how about barrels from contemporary outfits like CPA?  Does a Shuttleworth marked barrel command a certain value?  And to bring this full circle how about barrels with respected liners like TJ.  Do they, or will they some day command higher values because of their quality?  I agree they obviously do today, but if this hobby of ours doesn't fall off the edge of the world in the decades to come will they develop their own sense of value?  Maybe something akin to the respected barrel makers of the past?  I think there's a good possibilty for future gun guys to see it that way.

PS - but who knows.  In the future we may be installing barrels of outstanding accuracy that are popped out of 3D printers.  I think that technology will be a drop dead game changer for manufacturing in the years to come.

S99VG wrote on Jul 27^th, 2021 at 9:55am:


From a collector standpoint, any rebarreled gun will have lower value, unless it was rebarreled by someone famous and highly regarded. A Pope, Schoyen, etc. will bring significantly greater values, and often more than the equal gun with original barrel. But as fine as some of our modern barrel makers are, not many will bring huge increases in value, although a few might at least hold their value to those who want a very accurate rifle to compete with.
I guess there are relined barrels that might be questionable, but the work done when relining a barrel often shows a poor quality installation if it's not done right. Every relined barrel I've owned that appeared to be an exceptional installation, all seemed to shoot very good, and certainly much better than a sewer pipe bore. So I'll take a relined barrel over a sewer pipe barrel, if the installation looks good.
There is one exception to the relined barrels, and that also pertains to those fine old barrels done by the same custom barrel makers like Pope, Schoyen, Zischang, Peterson, etc. If their markings are on the barrel, but it's been relined, or it's a bad bore, then all the value added by their name being on the barrel is pretty much gone. These guns are highly regarded for the barrels they have, so not having the original bore is going to kill that added value.

I have a couple of rifles that I’ve relined the barrels, they took useless firearms and made them useable, one is a Winchester 92 baby saddle ring carbine, which is supposedly a rare rifle, but one that had a rusted out barrel and broken stock( mostly missing), but at least now I can use it.
Gumpy

I have a few extremely rare guns with less than perfect bores, but they're staying that way. They don't shoot horrible, but they certainly would shoot much better with a new barrel, or a relined barrel. But then they wouldn't be 100% original ever again.
I do everything possible to clean, and try to get an ugly bore shootable again. In some cases they've become very decent shooters, and I was pleased I tried cleaning them up instead of giving up and having them remain poor, or relining them. 
I always take the gun's condition, and rarity into consideration first, before deciding what to do with the bore. Many guys have enough guns to shoot that it's not the end of the world if they don't all shoot with target rifle accuracy. So I think sometimes it's better to leave them alone if they're not sewer pipe bores.

What is a historical gun, and what makes it significant? We all know that old guns owned by famous people are valuable, but only if you can 100% document the provenance. If it's sketchy, then it's just a good story.
  Same goes for guns built by renowned gunsmiths. Sometimes very easy to document, because they're well marked, and the rifling systems used are easily identified by examination.
But then there's those guns that might only have historical provenance within a certain region. They're not as valuable to the whole collector genre, but they too should be saved if at all possible, if they have any historical significance that's documented. I own several guns of this sort, and I personally think they have great value. Maybe not great monetary value, but the owners have wonderful history, and I've documented it well. 
One is a Ballard given to a Lt. Charles Phillips by his men. Phillips was an 1883 West Point graduate, who later went on to rise to the rank of Brigadier General, and served 43 years in the Army. To me that makes him an extraordinary person, and his gun is also.
The other I bought to get the Rolling Block receiver, as the gun was pretty sad shape. I bought it at one of the Big Reno gun shows for a couple hundred dollars, and when I began to strip it down I discovered the owner's name under the forearm, stamped into the barrel. He turned out to be an early Oregon Territory pioneer, whose father was significant in settling Oregon, and the owner was very active in early Oregon statehood, and a mayor of Oregon City, Or. during WWI. Now that doesn't rise to the rank of a nationally known figure, but it to me made the gun too important to disassemble for parts. So it got a rehabilitation, and not a restoration, to save as much of the original gun as possible. It has a wonderful bore, but if it hadn't, I would still not have changed the barrel in any way.
So to me big names might make a gun more valuable. But even regionally historical names, or names with wonderful history, make many guns well worth sparing from a total restoration, or even a reline.

marlinguy wrote on Jul 31^st, 2021 at 10:00pm:


And to that if I were TR I'd say "Bully!"

I too think we have a responsibility to history, which as previously stated amounts to much more than the big names and dates of the past. I can't see how anyone in this hobby could see it differently as it pretty much centers around artifacts and information from our ancestors in shooting - so I assume we all have some appreciation for history less we would be spending or time, energy, focus and money on "black guns."  Though I see a function in the presrvation and conservation of "historical" firearms I too see a utlity in restoration.  When a Stevens, Winchester or Ballard has reached the end of it's line as a shooter but has "good bones", it can be put out to pasture as a wall hanger or brought back to life with a careful restoration.  And as I said above, I think the act of restoration can too pay respect to the past if the work is kept consistent with how the firearm would have looked and been used "back in the day."  Of course when we attach Feckers, Litscherts and Unertls to many of those rifles we are taking some liberty with history as that technology would not have came into play for another genertation of two after those guns were introduced - so in doing I like to borrow a term from the car guys and call it a "resto mod."  As for how I would classify a firearm "historical"?  I would first take into consideration it's condition.  Any rifle from the past that is in excelent condition to me "has" history for the information it possesses, regardless of it being owned by the likes of a Teddy Roosevelt, Townsend Whelen or a Joseph T. Average.  And since I have more in common with that last guy it isn't too difficult understading what "turns my screws" when it comes to firearms of the past.    

JLouis wrote on Aug 1^st, 2021 at 3:56pm:


I don't believe I took what you said out of context John? 

I have restored and rebarreled more than one old gun. And in every case they were either total wrecks, or had already been rebarreled, or had damaged barrels. I'd hardly say that if someone took an old .30 caliber barrel and turned it down to stuff into a Ballard to use as a liner, that I was doing anything wrong by putting that particular gun back as it left the factory?
Nor would I say rebarreling a Ballard that some idiot drilled a scope mounting hole into the chamber as ruining the gun by replacing that barrel.

My point was that the "it's your gun, do what you want" attitude is not always what's best for the gun, and it's history. I don't see things that way on every gun. So take that for whatever it's worth. It's simply my opinion, and you can do what you please.

" My point was that the "it's your gun, do what you want" attitude is not always what's best for the gun, and it's history. "
But that is also exactly what you have been doing including new stocks, case coloring, new barrels and etc. So it brings up what I was trying to point out and that is it is OK for just a few self chosen folks yet they continue to condemn other's for wanting to do basically exactly the same?

Wow slow down Vall I never suggested the butchering of any firearms was OK to do.  But to do the same as you have done and if one needs new wood, case coloring or a new barrel we are actually on the same page. My comment about it is yours to do whatever you want with it is in reference to doing the same type of above work and not needing anyone's blessings prior too.
You haven't stepped on my toes I was just not sure how the OP might feel after reading all of the comments.   

Vall you have done an outstanding job of bringing old worn out Rifles back to their per-say original life. Are they still original no but does that really matter. Not at all as far as I am concerned its just about trying to do the right thing as you have and been doing yourself.

My lined target rifle used to be a beautiful but worthless for target shooting target rifle.
Now it is a beautiful useful match winning target rifle.   
My lined rifles value has gone way way up. 

One of these days I wouldn't mind attaching a scope to it to see just how accurate it really is.

The muzzle.

ssdave wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 10:06am:


Absolutely 100% spot on Dave! Those wanting such a fine old rifle will always run it down, when they want to steal it cheap. You only win if you keep it, and they go away empty handed.

Realistically alot of collectors are just anal in nature. Many vintage rifles are so far gone that 2 choices are left, part out or pursue a rescue restoration. A proper barrel re line in "some cases" is ok as in fine.
Why is this so different than restoring a mega dollar 60's muscle car?

Jlouis....so we are simpatico? A buyer has to be able to distinguish right from wrong. The restoration trend perception is changing albeit slowly.

KFW wrote on Aug 4^th, 2021 at 8:10pm:


I think it depends on the collector, and how long he's been at the hobby. I find a lot of guys who are gray haired, and been collecting for decades who are very particular and aren't open to restorations. They've got so many nice guns they've collected over the decades, that they aren't at all interested in even nicely restored or repaired rifles.
But there's a newer generation of collector who seem to put more emphasis on the appearance of their guns, and are happy to own a nicely restored old gun. Some even pay more for them! So I've seen some guns sold that were obvious high end restorations, that sold for big money that many older collectors would never pay.
With some quality restorers doing the work these days, it seems old restored rifles are getting big money now. There was an 1893 Marlin that went for auction at one of the big auction houses sometime ago. It was in mint unfired condition, and estimate was at $10k! I knew the owner, who had owned it 2 decades, and was beginning to sell his nicest guns. But at preview Doug Turnbull was viewing the auction, and thought he recognized the gun as one he'd done. He called his shop and had them check his records, which showed he'd restored the gun 25 years earlier! Now the fun part! They announced it was a Turnbull restoration prior to the auction, and it still sold for $10k. 
The owner had purchased it originally as an unrestored gun, so he wasn't part of the scam, and rather the person who got scammed.

Worth is a very subjective term.  Functionality/Usefulness is another one.

Example: I bought a HiWall in 38-55 this summer for $600.  Most of you can visualize the condition.  It is a straight grip single trigger example.  The lower tang is pitted to the point where no sign of a serial number can be seen.  The action at the front of the action also has minor pitting.  The action locks up fairly tight, and since I had a local shop install MVA scope blocks, it shoots a 255gr cast under 2" for 5 shots at 100 yds off the bench with my 20X Unertl.

Part of me wants to "fix" it by restocking and replacing most of the internal parts with MVA, including DST's.  The other part says to just enjoy it as is.

What to do?  We are just caretakers of these rifles, as we are with our home.   

Example 2: my parents home was inherited from a family member, it was a Sears pre-fab home from 1904  They built them in full height two story sections, and shipped them all over the US on flatbed cars.  At 88 years old my Mother sold it to a couple in their thirties with five young children.  They are doing a full restoration, but different interior colors.  Who judges them...?

With a rifle, ask someone who knows.

Rich

Very interesting discussion on a very subjective topic.
(Except for the bickering)
To solve this dilemma, I decided to acquire only high quality reproductions. This way I can modify as desired to fit my needs. Actually, most are purchased with the features I’m looking for.   
Collecting originals is great.  I prefer to shoot everything and not worry about diminishing values.
My vote would be to recline the barrel.
Mike.