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waterman
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Stevens-Pope question
Apr 15th, 2021 at 1:18pm
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What was the last year that Stevens listed Stevens-Pope barrels in their catalog?
  
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MrTipUp
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #1 - Apr 15th, 2021 at 3:20pm
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The main problem is that Stevens's factory records no longer exist.  Also, the company did not put out a catalog every year and the catalogs are not always dated.  Finally, I do not have a complete run of original Stevens catalogs and the Cornell reprints are sometimes suspect.  Therefore, here's the best I can do.

According to Pope himself, “In 1901 the Stevens Arms Company bought me out and from the first of May of that year I made the rifles that bear the name ‘Stevens-Pope.’ I made all of those that are numbered under about 1250.", leaving Stevens "... on the last day of December, 1905".

According to Tom Rowe, "Pope left at about S/N 1237. While he was with Stevens he was a supervisor, not a bench hand and actually 'made' very few barrels. He oversaw the men that did."

The most noteworthy of "the men that did" was Pope's main assistant, Fred Ross.  Ross continued to work for Sevens and the company continued to offer its renowned "Stevens-Pope" barrels until, reputedly, Pope threatened a suit in 1907 or 1908.

Therefore, my best guess is that 1906 and likely 1907 were the last years barrels marked "Stevens-Pope" were made.

However, just to further muddy the waters, in Catalog No. 53 dated 1911, though without any mention of Pope, Stevens was still offering the tang sight, powder flask and lubricating pump that Pope developed, as well as the de-recapper that has long been associated with Pope but was not actually his "invention".

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2021 at 6:28pm by MrTipUp »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #2 - Apr 15th, 2021 at 5:37pm
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I have seen a copy of a letter somewhere that Pope wrote to Stevens I believe two years after he parted with the company telling them to stop using his name on barrels. So since he left in 1905, I'd say that after 1907 they were no longer marking the barrels "Stevens-Pope". Even though they did continue after his departure around the serial number Bill mentioned, I believe there have been barrels up into the 1800 range with the Stevens-Pope markings after Pope's departure.
  

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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #3 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 7:59am
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I have a highwall with a Stevens-Pope barrel numbered 1842.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #4 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 9:59am
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Old-Win wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 7:59am:
I have a highwall with a Stevens-Pope barrel numbered 1842.


By that high a number is it even left hand twist, or right hand twist? I've seen some done late in production by Ross, after Pope's departure, and they were right hand twist, unlike those done by Pope.
Still very good shooters, with excellent rifling!
  

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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #5 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 10:39am
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marlinguy wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 9:59am:
Old-Win wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 7:59am:
I have a highwall with a Stevens-Pope barrel numbered 1842.


By that high a number is it even left hand twist, or right hand twist? I've seen some done late in production by Ross, after Pope's departure, and they were right hand twist, unlike those done by Pope.
Still very good shooters, with excellent rifling!


Left hand
  
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waterman
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #6 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 11:38am
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MrTipUp wrote on Apr 15th, 2021 at 3:20pm:
The main problem is that Stevens's factory records no longer exist.  Also, the company did not put out a catalog every year and the catalogs are not always dated.  Finally, I do not have a complete run of original Stevens catalogs and the Cornell reprints are sometimes suspect.  Therefore, here's the best I can do.

According to Pope himself, “In 1901 the Stevens Arms Company bought me out and from the first of May of that year I made the rifles that bear the name ‘Stevens-Pope.’ I made all of those that are numbered under about 1250.", leaving Stevens "... on the last day of December, 1905".

According to Tom Rowe, "Pope left at about S/N 1237. While he was with Stevens he was a supervisor, not a bench hand and actually 'made' very few barrels. He oversaw the men that did."

The most noteworthy of "the men that did" was Pope's main assistant, Fred Ross.  Ross continued to work for Sevens and the company continued to offer its renowned "Stevens-Pope" barrels until, reputedly, Pope threatened a suit in 1907 or 1908.

Therefore, my best guess is that 1906 and likely 1907 were the last years barrels marked "Stevens-Pope" were made.

However, just to further muddy the waters, in Catalog No. 53 dated 1911, though without any mention of Pope, Stevens was still offering the tang sight, powder flask and lubricating pump that Pope developed, as well as the de-recapper that has long been associated with Pope but was not actually his "invention".

Bill Lawrence



In Catalogue No. 53, was the Krag replacement barrel in .22 rimfire listed?
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #7 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 1:50pm
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Yet another question:  What year and catalog number are these scans from?
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #8 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 2:07pm
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Those pages come from the ...
CATALOG OF "SETEVENS-POPE" SPECIALTIES
Manufactured by
J. STEVENS ARMS & TOOL CO.
CHICOPEE FALLS, MASS
U. S. A.


Here's an original ...
  
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MrTipUp
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #9 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 2:45pm
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In Catalogue No. 53, was the Krag replacement barrel in .22 rimfire listed?

No. Catalog No. 53 from 1911 does not list these barrels.

HOWEVER, more closely studying that catalog revealed that Catalog No. 53 not only still listed the formerly Pope-associated accessories noted above, but also "breech loading" barrels and "muzzle loading outfits" for the "Stevens-Pope System".  The "outfit" included a false muzzle, starter, ramrod, mould, and lubricator pump.  The real question, of course, was whether such barrels were still separately serial-numbered and still stamped "Stevens-Pope".  My own guess is "yes" for the former and "no" for the latter; and yet again I dearly wish that the company's records still existed.

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2021 at 6:55pm by MrTipUp »  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #10 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 2:51pm
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Also, the Stevens-Pope Specialties catalog cited above is from 1905.

One last (for now) factoid: the version of Stevens Catalog No. 52 usually assigned to 1907 is apparently the last one to blatantly list Stevens-Pope rifles and accessories.

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2021 at 3:00pm by MrTipUp »  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #11 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:13pm
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Cornell publications lists two Stevens-Pope specialties catalog reprints, a 1902, and a 1905. I only have the 1905.
 
With the Stevens catalog #53, 1911, Steven’s focus seems to switch to shotguns. The re-boring services, and new made barrels for other makes of single shot rifles, disappeared from the catalog.
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #12 - Apr 16th, 2021 at 8:10pm
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MrTipUp wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 2:45pm:
In Catalogue No. 53, was the Krag replacement barrel in .22 rimfire listed?

No. Catalog No. 53 from 1911 does not list these barrels.

HOWEVER, more closely studying that catalog revealed that Catalog No. 53 not only still listed the formerly Pope-associated accessories noted above, but also "breech loading" barrels and "muzzle loading outfits" for the "Stevens-Pope System".  The "outfit" included a false muzzle, de-recapper, powder measure, mould, and lubricator pump.  

The real question, of course, was whether such barrels were still separately serial-numbered and still stamped "Stevens-Pope".  My own guess is "yes" for the former and "no" for the latter; and yet again I dearly wish that the company's records still existed.

Bill Lawrence


Bill, the Krag .22 barrels were definitely stamped "Stevens-Pope".   

One of the people at Amoskeag sent me pics of both rifles in their last auction.  Barrel # 878, as excellent a sample as any are likely to encounter, was stamped twice, with overlapping strikes, or perhaps the roll stamp slipped.  Barrel # 1237, a clunker, was lightly stamped.   

I have a photo of Barrel # 1065 with an Ordnance Dep't. flaming bomb stamp right at the end of the Stevens-Pope line.  That raises even more questions, considering that the Chief of Ordnance banned their use.

Were they a separate series?  I tend to think so, simply because they were bored (or turned) eccentrically and that would have required another series of steps in the manufacturing process. My WAG is that there were more than 600 made.

But the only way we'll ever know is if someone comes up with a duplicate SN.

  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #13 - Apr 17th, 2021 at 7:37am
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Yes, the Krag .22 barrels were indeed stamped "Stevens-Pope".  But like waterman, I've always assumed they had their own serial number range, and have actually read that claimed more than once, as well as that considerably more than 600 were made.

One can also look at it this way.  Since roughly 1250 Stevens-Pope barrels were made between early 1901 and the end of 1905, their serial numbers go at least as high as the low 1800s, and 1907 is assumed to be the "official" last year for barrels so marked, their production rate works out to a more or less consistent 300-350 barrels per year.  So, I'd venture that either the .22 Krag barrels accounted for almost all of the post-1905 production or they did indeed have their own serial number range.

Which also, again, brings up the question about how the "Stevens-Pope System" barrels advertised in the company's 1911 catalog were marked and numbered, assuming that any were in fact made that late.

Does anyone, for example, have or know of a Stevens-Pope-barreled rifle with an action that has a serial number high enough to put its production well past 1907?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope question
Reply #14 - Apr 17th, 2021 at 11:08am
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I have one in the 1700 serial range, and the barrel is marked just like all Stevens-Pope barrels when Pope was there.
I have no idea when it was made, since we have to records. Could only guess based on when Stevens and Pope started, and then extrapolate a guesstimate from that.
  

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