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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Custom bullet size die source? (Read 7403 times)
uscra112
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #15 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 12:25am
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oneatatime wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 6:15pm:
I ran into this with an old Marlin in 38-55. My question would have been why did Marlin stick with undersized chamber necks once black powder was no longer in general use to bump up the undersized bullets? I sold the rifle. My Uberti has a .379 groove but will chamber .380 bullets.


I would have given the same explanation as Starline article does.  There are other rifles from the paper-patch era that are also chambered with small necks.  One which I own is the Mauser 71/84.  The military load was a dead soft swaged bullet, paper patched, in front of a caseful of black powder. Theory being that the small bullet would enter a fouled bore and obturate as much as necessary on firing.  Paul Matthews wrote about this in his book The Paper Patch, many years ago now.  

So my solution would be to make ammunition that follows the designers' intentions. 
« Last Edit: Apr 9th, 2021 at 12:56am by uscra112 »  

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oneatatime
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #16 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 12:50am
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My 71 Mauser chambers and shoots .446 grease groove bullets with smokeless. Guess the German designers were looking to the future.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #17 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 12:55am
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CW wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 9:24pm:
I think I would have Mike Lewis fix the chamber.  I would have zero fear (McPherson) of not being able to address it.   McPherson's writings specific to the chamber reaming are not reasonable.


But they do serve the purpose of promoting Starline.   
  

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RonR
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #18 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:22pm
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Lots of good suggestions. I see suggestions to turn the brass. I have turned hundreds if not thousands of necks over the years on modern cartridges, but they have something to actually turn. One would need a custom turned spud, etc which I have made  several spuds over the years, for my custom projects.
   Nor do I wish to have a custom reamer made either with a larger neck, not at the price of reamers, not too mention the wait time. 
   I am not seeing why with patience, and care to keep away from the throat, that the neck couldn't be lapped open a couple thou. When I opened the die, about thirty minutes with 400 wet or dry on a piece of drill rod accomplished the task.
    I think the best bet as this point, make a sizer myself, or as suggested, get a mold made, cut to specs for the lead mix. I had cast some softer bullets, sized to .379 shot the gun yesterday, would get a couple shots an inch apart, and the others barley on paper. A lever gun is not a match gun but a small jackrabbit would be pretty safe. Planning to trying some even softer mix, maybe a hotter load.
Waters suggested 20/WW680/245 with good results at 1450. I didn't have my chrono set up but he might have been shooting softer lead. I tried to match his suggested mix, but never been very good at that. He talks about the bullet diameter headache.
Opening the chamber likely is the best answer but I want to try to other things first.
Thanks to all the suggestions. Ron
  
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RonR
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #19 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:26pm
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marlinguy wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 11:01am:
This is a pretty common problem with many .38-55 chambered rifles, and I'm not sure why? But the fix isn't to alter the chamber, or thin case necks. Once thinned enough to allow chambering a .381"-.382" bullet, the cases wont make it past cleaning, as the necks are so thin they come out of the tumblers dented and almost ruined.
The fix is to have a mold maker like Accurate, or any custom maker, build you a mold that's basically a heeled bullet design. Make the first two bands (or whatever depth you need) small enough to not bulge the case. Then the remaining bands at the size you need to seal the bore. 
I've had several friends who had Tom at Accurate build molds this way and love shooting their guns in .38-55 with larger bores now. I've also seen a fair number of chambers ruined and later sold to unknowing buyers by owners who thought they'd "improve" the guns by opening up the chambers. In a couple cases friends had to rebarrel or reline barrels when they discovered some idiot ruined their chamber.

    I recall you (I think) years back from the Marlin forums. I have a couple of molds from Accurate, talk about fast delivery. He has them delivered, quicker than most places read the order. That may be the best answer to this headache. Definitely gonna study it closer.Thanks, Ron
  
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RonR
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #20 - Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:35pm
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Again the mystery to me, is why Marlin would not join the 20th century and continue with the bore size of .381, in their cowboy version? I haven't shot but three or 4 rounds of factory in this gun, but seems to me they would rattle down the bore big time.
I sure who ever bought them brings up the quality a bunch.
I have one of the cowboy 1894s, 38 special, and it shoots like a house afire. Not certain when they made it, but for sure before the blind monkey crews started there.
Ron
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #21 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 1:03am
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You can probably find it here: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
PDF page 149 (Document page 137). Big companies build to SAAMI specs.
  
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RonR
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #22 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 12:33pm
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Thanks, the fact that the 38 55 predated Sammi by about 150 years, maybe Sammi  just copied the original? Wink Still doesn't explain to my hard head, why not all the gunmakers were on board with the larger bore.
  Maybe it was based on cartridge popularity, the 38 55 being phased out, and tooling for a bore change too expensive? The bean counters get wrapped around the axle when it comes to pennies spent I guess.
   The heel bullet aspect is intriguing. I knew what they were, but never really put a study on them, or if I did, I had forgot.
   A quick skim this morning enlightened me a bit, but still having a hard time visualizing how the heck a smaller base seals an already large bore.
On the other hand, the bullet base  would only need maybe .0025 smaller to cure the  chambering issue. 
   A real soft mix so they will seal?
An aside, the original Marlin 1893, has a  short leade compared to the modern 93 cowboy.Along with case length varying by brand, I need to begin keeping better records Wink
  
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #23 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 10:02pm
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Using an outside lubricated heel bullet does solve the problem, and in 32 Long I have found that plumbers tape, available in any hardware store works well to solve the messy outside lube problem. I have quite a few 38-55 factory rifles, but have been able to squeek by outside turning necks if necessary, or using Starline brass when it became available. Just fortunate I guess.           I can't see that opening up a chamber is the best solution, but also don't see why, if done correctly, that it shouldn't work. It would involve considerable expense, as a specially ground piloted reamer would have to be made, and some expertise in the execution, but seems possible to me?
  

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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #24 - Jul 28th, 2021 at 4:51pm
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I want to thank all for their suggestions. This is a followup of what I accomplished to make this a shootable gun.
   Someone suggested a heel bullet. Accurate mold has made me several molds in the past, and I contacted Tom, I believe, and ran the notion of a heel bullet by him.
    I ordered a similar already standard 38 55, about 245 grains. But he cut the base to .375, and the nose to .380, to marry up with the throat on my modern 336 "cowboy", Marlin.
   I requested a softer mix, and we guessed really close, cause the bullet drops, with the base not being touched, and the nose just touching the .378 sizer die from RCBS, special order, to sort of match the bore on my rifle, .380
   After casting, the bullet is a thumb push fit into the fully sized case. The sizer puts lube into the groove, and just kisses the upper .380 bullet nose section.
   Had a little adventure, they wouldn't chamber using the crimp groove length. After some farm boy tricks, I realized the bullets were too long, for the throat/leade of this particular gun.
   I trimmed the cases, back to 2.075, and seated the bullets to match, and everything is kosher.
    With the fires, and record heat for northern NV, I hadn't been to the range in several weeks, un til this morning, to give it the acid test.
    I shoot unproven rifles, at 50 yards, as if a gun does not come close to cloverleafs at 50, they sure wont be bragging groups at 100, and a guy can save time and ammo by testing at 50.
   Some will disagree, but with a new unknown rifle, I will often zero at 25, which near guarantees hits at 100.
   Anyway, with a tang peep, and less than ideal bench, I was close to cloverleaf 3 shot groups at 50. I had reworked the OSHA approved trigger down to around two lbs, soon after I got the gun, and those outside the groups, I called out. My 65 year old eyes are the best excuse I have. Cool
   I considered all the options suggested, but am happy as can be, that I simply got the special mold. 
    Accurate Mold makes a darn fine product.
Thanks again, Ron

  
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oldman46
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #25 - Jul 29th, 2021 at 1:43am
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Try castbullets@gunloads.com and there should be at least two if I remember right that do custom sizer dies. Lathesmith is one that I'm pretty sure who does this type of work. Just post a query in the gunsmithing section and you should get an answer. Frank
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #26 - Jul 29th, 2021 at 11:52am
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Bernie Rowles at Old West made me two special sizing dies.
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #27 - Jul 30th, 2021 at 4:54pm
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SAECO SIZING DIE/.376
100-020-348WB
SAECO Sizing Die .376" Diameter
Mfr Part: 30376

$43.99

1
Add to Cart
Special Order Item: Please allow 5-8 weeks additional processing time.
Diameter (in): .376
  
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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #28 - Jul 30th, 2021 at 6:50pm
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Mick McPherson and his book has my 336C shooting 2" groups at 100 yards. For a lever gun, I would think the groups are satisfactory.

For those who want to fix the Marlin, be aware that Manson has a reamer that will fix the problem. The reamer is the result of McPherson and Manson. If you have a 38-55 Marlin that has been throated another way, the reamer will not solve the problem. 
  

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Re: Custom bullet size die source?
Reply #29 - Jul 31st, 2021 at 10:45pm
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I have several Manson reamers on hand. He is one of the best.
   Having gunsmithed and built rifles for 40 odd years, none of this is my first rodeo.
    I have learned to ask others before doing drastic things, thus the initial questions.
   Under the every action  has an equal reaction, I had already annealed, and polished an existing sizing die, to 378, trying to match the bore. Then the gotchas, started, with chambering problems.
   It has a SAMMI chamber, so lets say Manson makes me a slight oversize reamer. so then I have to get a custom mold, AND a maybe a custom die to match.
  Cause the loading dies, are gonna be a bit hard on the brass, taking the brass down to SAMMI specs. And possibly some expander spud issues,
    Sorting out all the  ideas and suggestions, certainly lead me down the right path for sure.
   I have an original 1893, 38-55, the chamber isn't near as tight, but its got the same .380 bore. I haven't tried the new mold yet. One rodeo at a time, is about all I can manage. Cheesy
  
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