I have located what I believe is #12. It's a High Wall. I do not have the Pope books. What I would like to know is it mentioned in them ?

Just a note on early Hartford Pope barrels. They usually have no markings under the forearm to indicate bore or twist rate like later Pope Hartford barrels have. In looking through the Pope books it shows only one barrel below around #150 that has any markings beyond the serial number.

Wonderful info Fitz! It's always nice to hear more info that we can't find in books! I am glad Claude Roderick tracked down so many of the Pope barreled guns, and even happier that he was able to also track down some ownership on a good many and record it. In the case of one of mine he listed 5 or 6 of the owners before it "went missing" in the 1970's. Since I bought it from the estate, and knew it had been owned by the same man over 40 years, I was able to complete the chain after it disappeared.

That looks like maybe an original Winchester barrel that Pope rifled???  maybe re-rifled?  I am jealous!

And it skips from #326 to #330

Regards,
Joe

scharfe wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 8:54am:


But the books are based on very old data that Claude Roderick had gathered decades before the books were published. So most of the guns in the Hartford Pope books were part of Claude's 3"x5" file card records that were donated to ASSRA later. So a gun not being in the books means it never got Claude's attention, he never personally saw it, and the owner never contacted him back when he was actively seeking information from owners through the ASSRA.
Since Claude's recordings, and the books publishing, there are a number of guns that have come to light and were not in Claude's records, or the books. And I'm sure with holes in the known records, even more will continue to be found in the future. 
Whenever I see one I immediately check the Hartford Pope books. If it's not there I make up a sheet and add it between pages in the book for my future reference. I'd enjoy knowing more about this Pope rifle just to add to my own records. So if you can reveal anything else about the rifle it's attached to, the caliber, or any other specifics, I'd sure appreciate knowing it. Can't quite make out the code there? It looks sort of like "21 and 1.41" ? The 1.41 is pretty common, but would like to know what the first number is for sure?

Twist rates for both seem a little slow. Assuming this is in regards to gain twists might these be the starting rates at the chamber end and not the finished rate at the muzzle.

Could not find anything in his catalog about twist rates. 
But allot about using Winchester's uncut barrels and the entire rifle as furnished by Winchester also with an uncut barrel for those who wanted a complete rifle of which he did not do.

What would be very interesting is to know how many Winchester uncut barrels that he actually reamed and cut. And the same goes for the amount of complete Winchester rifles he also did. He must of had a tremendous amount faith in the quality of Winchester's barrels and how the steel was actually being made. To also satisfy him enough to guarantee the accuracy of his own cut barrel process. He also clearly stated that he did not need the action for Winchester actions they were all interchangeable at the time and no individual fitting that was not at all required. That alone is an amazing thing Winchester had their process way above all of the rest and all of their parts were interchangeable.

Might be some Pope HiWalls out there that might be just looked at as coming from the Winchester factory when being handed down and don't actually realize what they have. Allot of times we tend to take things for granted by having a sense that everyone knows about Pope, Schoyen, Zischang, Peterson and some of the rest. To some of the folks that might have some of these rifles its just another rifle to then. Quite a few years back I bought a 28-30 Stevens Pope and what I would consider to be a Wood Chuck rifle. 0441/2 action, straight stock, original tang sight, barrel left hand gain twist and condition I would put at 98%. It just had one little spot on the bottom of the lever the rest of the rifle appeared to be used very little if at all. It was on Gunbroker as a buy it now for $100.00 and one of the gentleman on this site now owns that rifle. If memory serves me right he was going to do a write up about that rifle. Rifle was listed as single shot 22 or something to that affect and came from Washington state. Figured worse case it would be a wall hanger and I knew it was a 441/2 action by the picture and of poor quality. By the time I paid transfer fees, shipping was free I was only into it for around $140.00 dollars + or -.

Soooooooooo... There is a possibility that #329 could be a Pope rebore of a lower # Pope ?

Pictures I am getting are poor. The current owner is very helpful though.

Could that be a Singer stock? Maybe the triggers also? 

JerryH

Jerry that checkpiece looks awfully "singer-ish" doesn't it..although the large drop and resulting contour of wood I would say is a bit taller than what I  have seen on his other efforts (not that i have seen that many).  Sure works well with the contour of the bottom tang.   Not sure about the trigger work...I giggle a bit thinking that Bremmer didn't seem to be able to work on a gun without putting that  trademark checking on it....   Memory is starting to fade a bit, need to look at some photos and re-educate myself.

Great looking piece none the less.  Envious!

Off topic but i'll always loved the looks of the singer palm rest (not present on this rifle).

Singer marked lever rifled by Pope while in Hartford. Sold at auction last year. Probably a Singer stock.

Singer was also known for his triggers. And the three-fingered so-called "Pope" levers are actually Singer levers. 

A friend has a Singer Pope with the buttplate, lever, and palm rest all marked by Singer. I wonder if this one may have some marks on it. They are fairly small if I remember right and may go unnoticed if you don't look for them.

JerryH

Its been so long now Jerry since I have seen that friends Singer HiWall that I don't recall what his double set triggers actually looked like so thanks for bringing it up. At first look at the one currently be discussed they instantly reminded me of Otto Bremer'ss work. If memory serves me right Dave Fowler had Bremer's double sets on his Pope HiWall.

Bremer triggers on my friend's OA Bremer Ballard

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And the buttplate marking on Bremer style buttplate

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Whole rifle

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I think internally Bremer triggers for a High Wall, Stevens, Ballard, etc. would indeed be different. But I bet the external shape the shooter's finger contacts would all be very close to what Bremer considered ideal.
Just like Singer's triggers will always have that thin wire like front trip trigger, regardless of what gun he fitted them to.

Another view

Yes I am the caretaker of the Singer pictured above. It is a Hartford Pope. There was no record of the rifle until I purchased it. It has now been added to the Harford Pope archives.

Joe Singer and Otto Bremer were very prolific workmen and made and repaired all sorts of guns, including shotguns. I've examined several Bremer rifles that had European double-set triggers marked "Fox." Jerry Simons once sent me an envelope full of photos of a Bremer rifle in his collection that had a double-set trigger that set from the top, so it looked like a single trigger, but the set was on the top tang next to the sight base, and again those triggers were marked "Fox." Bremer and Singer were very clever workmen and did all sorts of nice work.

Thanks guys! Very informative thread on Singer and Bremer and their work. Certainly both were talented gunsmiths.

I bought my first one I believe around 1995 Lee and my last one around 2006 if memory serves me right. And I gave it to my son in law.

You are welcome Lee and I believe I had the hammer head weight wrong and it was 14 ounces and not 20. Fatigue factor was about zero and it took one tap to start a 16d GV nail and one swing to drive it home. Also had a slot on the top and magnet to hold the head of a nail so one did not have to get on ladder for up to an 8ft reach to start a nail and very well thought out. It was also investment cast and the price with tax was right at about $100.00 ea.

Droll, scharfe, very droll; but also spot on!

Bill Lawrence

All wonderful information Sir. Even more so if the rifle in question has such a hammer.

There was a question asked about the Singer rifle hammer needing more hammer spring pressure and I was explaining to the gentleman why it should not. By using my hammer and a golf club head as an example. So it was actually about the Singer rifle and the best way I knew how to explain it was not about the mass but the additional speed of the hammer that still will ignite the primer.
And then Lee had a question in regards to Ruger Firearms making a framing hammer of which they did and it too was firearms related.

   This is exactly what I mean. Every time I see a new post on a subject that I started I expect to learn something. When it goes off on a tangent who knows, sometimes it never comes back. The Singer stuff is very helpful. A physics lesson ? It's force = 1/2 mass x velocity (squared)   
or force = mass x acceleration