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Hartford Pope rifle (Read 13050 times)

scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 542 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Hartford Pope rifle Feb 22^nd, 2021 at 11:09pm	Print Post
	I have located what I believe is #12. It's a High Wall. I do not have the Pope books. What I would like to know is it mentioned in them ?


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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 542 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #1 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 4:05am	Print Post
	Thank you, Tim


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16269 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #2 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 10:25am	Print Post
	Just a note on early Hartford Pope barrels. They usually have no markings under the forearm to indicate bore or twist rate like later Pope Hartford barrels have. In looking through the Pope books it shows only one barrel below around #150 that has any markings beyond the serial number.

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OLD TUCK Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 469 Location: Middleborough MA Joined: Oct 5^th, 2017	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #3 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 12:11pm	Print Post
	Some of his first Hartford's the only place where there was a number was the False Muzzle. I know where #10 is and it's only marked on the False Muzzle. It is a Ballard and is in the Book. A friend of mine owns it. We had to buy it at Auction. It first showed up as just a barreled action and stock. no inside parts. Came reasonably cheap. I was talking to another friend and he new the source. He told us the last time he saw it was at a gunsmiths apart. with the innards in a cigar box. So we went back to the Auction Co. and asked, they did find the cigar box with the parts and let us know about them. But said they had to go through the regular Auction because they were part of an Estate. My friend and I were there and he had to bid quite high to make sure he got it. We checked with a Dealer who has handled a lot of Pope Rifles and he confirmed that at Popes beginning at Hartford quite a few were only numbered on the False Muzzle. He knew of this Rifle and had been trying for some number of years to track it down but just kept missing it. We have not fired it but it does have a bright Shiny I would say good bore. There is a good History of the owners in Volume 1. The book describes the bore as ruined but it is far from ruined. HTH FITZ, OLD TUCK


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16269 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #4 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 1:28pm	Print Post
	Wonderful info Fitz! It's always nice to hear more info that we can't find in books! I am glad Claude Roderick tracked down so many of the Pope barreled guns, and even happier that he was able to also track down some ownership on a good many and record it. In the case of one of mine he listed 5 or 6 of the owners before it "went missing" in the 1970's. Since I bought it from the estate, and knew it had been owned by the same man over 40 years, I was able to complete the chain after it disappeared.

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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 542 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #5 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 6:51pm	Print Post
	Here are pictures of the roll marks and stamps under the barrel.


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GT Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2047 Location: Northeast Wyoming Joined: Jun 28^th, 2015	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #6 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 7:28pm	Print Post
	That looks like maybe an original Winchester barrel that Pope rifled??? maybe re-rifled? I am jealous!

	"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" T. A. Edison "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 542 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #7 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 7:36pm	Print Post
	It's not # 12. i just got a picture of the false muzzle. It has 329 on it. So we don't know what the # 12 is for and what looks like 529 is 329.


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jfeldman ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1083 Location: Imperial Beach, Ca Joined: Nov 5^th, 2005	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #8 - Feb 23^rd, 2021 at 8:37pm	Print Post
	And it skips from #326 to #330 Regards, Joe


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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 542 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #9 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 8:54am	Print Post
	Not being in the book is good. If this rifle is the real thing it wouldn't have been available for inspection when the book was written.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16269 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #10 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 10:50am	Print Post
	scharfe wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 8:54am: Not being in the book is good. If this rifle is the real thing it wouldn't have been available for inspection when the book was written. But the books are based on very old data that Claude Roderick had gathered decades before the books were published. So most of the guns in the Hartford Pope books were part of Claude's 3"x5" file card records that were donated to ASSRA later. So a gun not being in the books means it never got Claude's attention, he never personally saw it, and the owner never contacted him back when he was actively seeking information from owners through the ASSRA. Since Claude's recordings, and the books publishing, there are a number of guns that have come to light and were not in Claude's records, or the books. And I'm sure with holes in the known records, even more will continue to be found in the future. Whenever I see one I immediately check the Hartford Pope books. If it's not there I make up a sheet and add it between pages in the book for my future reference. I'd enjoy knowing more about this Pope rifle just to add to my own records. So if you can reveal anything else about the rifle it's attached to, the caliber, or any other specifics, I'd sure appreciate knowing it. Can't quite make out the code there? It looks sort of like "21 and 1.41" ? The 1.41 is pretty common, but would like to know what the first number is for sure?

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16269 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #11 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 11:06am	Print Post
	Thinking about the code markings, and the matted top on this Winchester barrel, I think this is a rebore by Pope. Likely he took a .32-40 factory Winchester barrel and bored it out. Then rifled it to a .33-47 caliber. Pope used a 1:18" twist rate usually in his .32-40 barrels, but in his .33-47 barrels he used a 1:21" twist rate. So this being marked 21/1.41 would indicate he made this a .33-47 caliber.

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #12 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 11:36am	Print Post
	Twist rates for both seem a little slow. Assuming this is in regards to gain twists might these be the starting rates at the chamber end and not the finished rate at the muzzle.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16269 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #13 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 3:23pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 11:36am: Twist rates for both seem a little slow. Assuming this is in regards to gain twists might these be the starting rates at the chamber end and not the finished rate at the muzzle. I think compared to what guys are shooting these days they are slow. But compared to what factory twist rates were at the time Pope's were right there at factory. But the 1.41 is indeed his code for a gain twist. So it would be a faster twist by the time it reached the crown. Not sure about my math, but I think the result might be around a 1:12.5" twist at the other end? Maybe somebody knows for sure how the 1.41 relates to gain?

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Hartford Pope rifle Reply #14 - Feb 24^th, 2021 at 5:09pm	Print Post
	Could not find anything in his catalog about twist rates. But allot about using Winchester's uncut barrels and the entire rifle as furnished by Winchester also with an uncut barrel for those who wanted a complete rifle of which he did not do.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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