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H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester (Read 5996 times)

Old-Win Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1667 Location: Minnesota Joined: Nov 24^th, 2005	H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Feb 11^th, 2021 at 4:40pm	Print Post
	Found this barrel a while back and noticed it was for an 1894 Winchester takedown. Was Harry buying barrels from Winchester for lever guns and then rifling them himself? We know he got them for 1885's. Not a single shot I know but he seems to be in much of the conversation lately. Bob


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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 507 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #1 - Feb 11^th, 2021 at 4:51pm	Print Post
	I like it. It's a barrel a deer would be proud to be killed with.


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Myers Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: Mar 5^th, 2013	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #2 - Feb 11^th, 2021 at 7:26pm	Print Post
	scharfe wrote on Feb 11^th, 2021 at 4:51pm: I like it. It's a barrel a deer would be proud to be killed with. LOL


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oodmoff Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 276 Location: colorado springs Joined: Jan 12^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #3 - Feb 11^th, 2021 at 8:46pm	Print Post
	Oh honey....yes dear..... (very nice find btw, thanks for sharing!)


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terry buffum Full Member Offline Posts: 144 Location: Bend, Oregon Joined: Feb 11^th, 2007	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #4 - Feb 11^th, 2021 at 8:59pm	Print Post
	I remember seeing listing for a '95 Winchester with Pope barrel. .30-06, I think.

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MrTipUp Frequent Elocutionist Offline Quality is to a product what character is to a man Posts: 1303 Location: Indiana Joined: Feb 19^th, 2020	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #5 - Feb 11^th, 2021 at 10:47pm	Print Post
	After all, Pope himself much enjoyed hunting, specializing in woodchucks, if I remember correctly. Bill Lawrence


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ballardhepburnmich ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 598 Location: Scotts,mi. Joined: May 20^th, 2015	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #6 - Feb 12^th, 2021 at 1:34am	Print Post
	He also killed a lot of deer too. Lee Gibbs pres.ASSRA


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #7 - Feb 12^th, 2021 at 10:24am	Print Post
	Is it actually a .32-40, or is it a larger bore now? Since it has Winchester's VP proof stamp, it seems to indicate it left the factory chambered for the .32-40 cartridge, and not just bored as Pope used on 1885 barrels. So likely it's rebored, and rifled by Pope to a larger bore?

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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #8 - Feb 15^th, 2021 at 12:37pm	Print Post
	Pope did buy drilled barrels from Winchester and reamed and rifled them. Asd on occasion the Custom shop would order a barrel from Pope (The Ittle rifle is an example) If I had to guess Id speculate that a gunsmith at sometime removed a Pope barrels from a Schuetzen rifle to turn it into a varminter. That was not unusual at the time. Because it was a good barrel the smith put it aside and when a customer came in with a 32 caliber lever gun he set it back re chambered it and out the boor it went. Pope did enjoy hunting and was an avid deer hunter. He always said if you were hunting you didnt need a Pope barrel. He backed that up by using a Winchester High Wall in 30-40 Kraeg just the way the factory sent it. 40 rod


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #9 - Feb 15^th, 2021 at 2:44pm	Print Post
	If I remember right Pope killed quite a few deer or I should say all of the deer he shot were one shot kills with the exception of maybe one with his 30-40 Krag HW and claimed it to be the very best hunting cartridge on the market at that time. If memory also serves right he also killed some elk with that rifle back at that time and having the same results. Its been so long back since I have read about his hunting experiences I hope I got allot of this right.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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scharfe Oldtimer Offline A good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow. Posts: 507 Location: ny / pa line Joined: Dec 18^th, 2006	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #10 - Feb 15^th, 2021 at 8:34pm	Print Post
	They are fiction but I do remember the Pyne stories. One of these stories had him hunting with an 1878 sharps in 38/72.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #11 - Feb 16^th, 2021 at 4:44pm	Print Post
	40_Rod wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 12:37pm: Pope did buy drilled barrels from Winchester and reamed and rifled them. Asd on occasion the Custom shop would order a barrel from Pope (The Ittle rifle is an example) If I had to guess Id speculate that a gunsmith at sometime removed a Pope barrels from a Schuetzen rifle to turn it into a varminter. That was not unusual at the time. Because it was a good barrel the smith put it aside and when a customer came in with a 32 caliber lever gun he set it back re chambered it and out the boor it went. Pope did enjoy hunting and was an avid deer hunter. He always said if you were hunting you didnt need a Pope barrel. He backed that up by using a Winchester High Wall in 30-40 Kraeg just the way the factory sent it. 40 rod Since this barrel still has original Winchester markings, plus the Pope markings, I don't see how either would exist if it had been recontured? And the "VP" marking would indicate it was chambered, rifled, and proofed at Winchester, so had to be a finished barrel before it left there. I'd still like to know if it's a .32-40 still, or maybe bored, and rifled by Pope to maybe .38-55, or something other than the original caliber?

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terry buffum Full Member Offline Posts: 144 Location: Bend, Oregon Joined: Feb 11^th, 2007	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #12 - Feb 17^th, 2021 at 9:23pm	Print Post
	I'm with Marlinguy in asking what this barrel is now bored/chambered to accept. From the markings, it is no longer a .32/40. Is it a .38/55 or perhaps a wildcat .35?

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MrTipUp Frequent Elocutionist Offline Quality is to a product what character is to a man Posts: 1303 Location: Indiana Joined: Feb 19^th, 2020	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #13 - Feb 17^th, 2021 at 11:14pm	Print Post
	Maybe it's a .33-47? Bill Lawrence


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #14 - Feb 17^th, 2021 at 11:35pm	Print Post
	MrTipUp wrote on Feb 17^th, 2021 at 11:14pm: Maybe it's a .33-47? Bill Lawrence I don't think it could go from .32-40 Win rifling to .33-47 and Pope rifling. Likely have to be a larger bore of at least .35 caliber.

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #15 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 10:31am	Print Post
	Pope did rebore 32-40's to 33-40's and 33-47's.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #16 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 2:00pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Feb 18^th, 2021 at 10:31am: Pope did rebore 32-40's to 33-40's and 33-47's. Yes, on his original bore and rifling. But not on someone else's rifling. He'd be trying to rifle it left hand twist over Winchester's right hand twist, and end up not cleaning up all the original .32-40 rifling if he only opened it up to a .33-47 Pope. So you'd have cross hatch pattern right-left rifling, and likely different twist rates too. I've never heard or read of Pope going over other's rifling and following their right hand twist rate?

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #17 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 3:12pm	Print Post
	Here you go Vall " In the later early cartridge era rifles were often "freshened" to the next size up. Pope recut 32 calibers to 33. " I have also checked on having this being done to my 32-40 barrel and not a problem it can still be easily done today.
	« Last Edit: Feb 18^th, 2021 at 3:36pm by JLouis »
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #18 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 3:45pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Feb 18^th, 2021 at 3:12pm: Here you go Vall " In the later early cartridge era rifles were often "freshened" to the next size up. Pope recut 32 calibers to 33. " I have also checked on having this being done to my 32-40 barrel and not a problem it can still be easily done today. Yes, but again John, he was freshening HIS rifling to the larger size .33, not changing right hand twist Winchester to left hand twist Pope rifling. And I'm sure others recut rifling to match existing rifling twist and shape. Just not Pope cutting over Winchester's rifling. Just not enough material to get the old rifling removed completely and rifle it to .33 caliber if he was going to change to left hand Pope.

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #19 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 4:26pm	Print Post
	What formula are using to determine that the existing grooves would not be completely removed as if starting from an unrifled barrel. It is highly doubtful that Pope could actually follow his own and even if could the twist rate would not be the same and it too would also have to be changed. The only way to do that would be to wipe out all of the existing rifling no matter who originally rifled the barrel or in what direction. The twist rate for my own would also have to be changed and I have been informed that it too would be a part of the re-cutting / re-rifleing process but now and I am confused?
	« Last Edit: Feb 18^th, 2021 at 6:35pm by JLouis »
	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #20 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 4:43pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Feb 18^th, 2021 at 4:26pm: What formula are using to determine that the existing grooves would not be completely removed as if starting from an unrifled barrel. It is highly doubtful that Pope could actually follow his own and even if could the twist rate would not be the same and it too would also have to be changed. The only way to do that would be to wipe out all of the existing rifling no matter who originally rifled the barrel or in what direction. Since Pope had his rifling machine, and his barrels were coded for the twist rate, he could easily follow his own rifling. But the usual old .32-40 bores were drilled around .314" and rifling was .0025 deep. At least that's what was specified. But I've found most old .32-40's to be larger than .319" and often more around .323"-.326" groove. At least none of mine are as small as under .323" for my old singleshots. So I'd guess they'd need to go slightly larger bore just to clean up the remnants of rifling before changing twist rates, or especially before changing direction to left hand twist? I'm not positive what groove diameter the old gunsmiths used for the old .33-40 and .33-47, but the Hepburn I have in .33-40 is a true .33 at .329" groove. That's cutting things pretty close to remove the original .320"-.323" groove, and be able to get a new rifled bore around .329" groove diameter.

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #21 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 6:33pm	Print Post
	I have a 33 bullet out of an original Pope mould that Fitz sent me several years back and the baseband is .340 - 341 and the last driving band is .338 but I have no clue what the bore diameter would actually be. But say it was minus .004 per side and a minus .008 total it would be .332 give or take. So maybe Pope's bore size on his re-rifled 33 barrels might be bigger than what we might think it to be? Hopefully Fitz might Chime in with his own input I keep getting more confused on how Pope actually did it. Hopefully I wasn't measuring the wrong bullet but I don't believe it was i have always keep that 33 Pope bullet in a separate and highly protected place.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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MrTipUp Frequent Elocutionist Offline Quality is to a product what character is to a man Posts: 1303 Location: Indiana Joined: Feb 19^th, 2020	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #22 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 6:54pm	Print Post
	It would be nice if not conclusive if Old-Win slugged his Pope-rifled bore and informed us of its measurements. Bill Lawrence


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #23 - Feb 18^th, 2021 at 9:11pm	Print Post
	If Pope's .33 was actually a .34 then the rebore would easily work. Now I wonder why it wasn't called a .34-40 or .34-47? Yes Bill, I wish he'd return and quit leaving us guessing!

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #24 - Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:04pm	Print Post
	On page 12 in his catalog it only states the below. Recutting to Pope System I recut rifles of other makers to a larger sizes with the same outfit and guarantees as for a new barrel.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #25 - Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:20pm	Print Post
	Bill I am curious if it was recut to a 33-47 or if it is still a 32-40. Other than reading that is something he typicaly did Pope. I cannot find any other information other than its known that he would do it. When I was thinking about having mine recut from a 32-40 to 33-47. I was talking to Cliff LaBounty at the time and he said he could do it. How I don't have a clue I never thought to ask him that question.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #26 - Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:42pm	Print Post
	Starting make more sense on recutting a 32-40 to a 33-40 or 33-47. Bore diameter would then be .330 + or - and existing 32-40 rifling would then be completely removed. Sometimes called the .33-47, this caliber is merely the .32-40 with .338 groove rifling. It was originally made to enable shooters to get a new barrel by just rerifling a worn out or damaged barrel, but there were a number of barrels originally made in this caliber, especially as Stevens-Popes. It is easy to tell if an original Stevens-Pope barrel has been rerifled by Stevens, as the marking on the underside of the barrel is changed.
	« Last Edit: Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:54pm by JLouis »
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15994 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #27 - Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:55pm	Print Post
	I have a Ballard #3 Gallery rifle that began life as the typical .22L chambering. It was re-rifled to .25 Stevens RF Long at Stevens, and is marked in Stevens script on the exposed barrel flat. But also marked under the forearm on the barrel as being done by Stevens. I don't recall the exact wording on their rollstamp now, but I believe it reads, "Re-rifled by J. Stevens" ?

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: H.M. Pope And The 1894 Winchester Reply #28 - Feb 19^th, 2021 at 1:12pm	Print Post
	Looking back and now getting allot harder for me to do my Bresien Steven's 33-47 was .338. Action and barrel were both made by Ken and the barrel a left hand twist. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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