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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle (Read 7085 times)
bobw
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Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Nov 15th, 2020 at 10:40pm
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I know these rifles are not real collectible but when I saw this one couldn't resist it.  Someone dressed it up a bit!

Over all it is a nice rifle as the photos show, probably redone, obviously the frame was polished.  The rifling is just so-so though but shootable.  I've had this gun for quit awhile but got it out a couple years ago and its been sitting in the rack in my shop since.  Started doing some research recently, have read most of the old threads here, and believe it is a medium frame rifle.  The frame is 1.2" wide with .140" thick side walls, a side pin retaining the barrel, 9 o'clock extractor.  Now trying to decide if I want to line the barrel, it would only cost the price of the liner since I can do the work.  Its been fun sitting in the rack, everyone that sees it has to pick it up.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2020 at 10:48pm by bobw »  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #1 - Nov 15th, 2020 at 10:41pm
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More photos.

From what I understand the odd looking rear screw on the right side adjusts the sear engagement.  It does have a nice trigger pull.

The rebounding hammer surprised me being a low priced gun in its day.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2020 at 11:03pm by bobw »  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #2 - Nov 15th, 2020 at 10:42pm
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More
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #3 - Nov 15th, 2020 at 11:23pm
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Nice rifle Bob, I have it's older half brother, a 32 R/CF Baystate midframe. Yours is nicer shape. I think they were a little overwhelmed in the market place by another rifle that also came out in 1885, made by Winchester. There is no caliber marking on mine.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #4 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 12:32am
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I restored a Base state rifle that was rusty, mising a chunk of wood and in 32.  I lined it to 22 and it turned out to be a nice rifle.
If I were you I would reline it and enjoy it.
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #5 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 12:51am
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put a liner in it and send the receiver out for color case
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #6 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 9:34am
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^ That. and put a tang sight on it!
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #7 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:37am
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Thanks for the ideas guys, I'm actually set up to do all those processes. I've already got a relined 3922 H&A .22 that is a tackdriver and a bunch of 32rf's which I shoot. So the Baystate has just sat in a corner behind a milling machine. I'll be older than Methuselah if I live long enough to accomplish all my projects.
Sorry Bob, for the drift. I really do like your rifle.
Dennis
  

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bobw
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #8 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 12:01pm
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Dennis, no problem on a drift.  I started this thread just for the purpose of seeing comments on this gun and any that others have.  These poor Hopkins and Allen guns suffer from lack of confidence and respect when hanging out around all the 1885’s, Ballards, Stevens and so on!  Grin

rex, nice job on the rifle.

Ken and gowehrfreund, I’m I to assume you aren’t fans of the the classic deco on the frame!   Cheesy

Bob
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #9 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 12:16pm
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I’m not familiar with the Baystate version so can someone enlighten me on the history?  Looking at Rex’s rifle compared to mine there is  quite a bit of difference in screw locations and his does not have the sear adjusting screw.  Is the Baystate a version of the 9 series guns?

On a side note about these rifles, I see C. Sharps is or was building a version of the small 9 series gun.  Must be some interest in them.
Bob
  

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MrTipUp
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #10 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 3:22pm
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Back in the 1950's, my father was friends with a fellow machinist and amateur gunsmith who did lovely restoration work except for his penchant for jeweling his nicely repolished actions and sometimes other fittings.  Supposedly, his excuse was that back then finding someone who would do small color case hardening projects, especially for DIY craftsmen like him, was extremely difficult.  Unfortunately, I can't remember his name, only that he lived in South Bend, Indiana and worked for the South Bend Tool & Die.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #11 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 3:28pm
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Bob, what I know is plagiarized from Ned Robert's book and assorted gun nut legends. Nutshell version; I think William Davenport designed the action, maybe even made some rifles? Baystate Arms acquired the patent, made them for 2 or 3 years, went under and H&A bought the tooling, patents and parts. 
Baystate may have made all 3 sizes, I don't know. They are not common in any size. H&A made all three sizes, medium frames are quite scarce. The big and little ones are everywhere. 
The Baystate medium frame I have has a neat RF/CF block. There is a sliding dovetail plate that can be secured with a screw to put the firing pin at either center or 9 o'clock. It also has a removable trigger plate similar to rolling blocks which does not appear to be carried over in your rifle.
Gun nut legend has it that Baystate's were made with better materials and craftsmanship but that may just be what the guy selling a Baystate will say.
I stuck in a picture comparing Baystate medium with H&A small.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #12 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 8:15pm
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Dennis, thanks for the info, and no, mine does not have a removable tigger plate.  Interesting about the rimfire/centerfire block, I think I saw somewhere that H&A had a link with two lower holes to accommodate the same but not sure what model it was used on.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #13 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 8:40pm
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Bill, that info is really interesting.  The restoration on this gun was done by someone that did really nice work and it is an older restoration.  The frame is very nicely polished and the jeweling is well done and besides the frame sides, the hammer, breech block, front of the frame, lever pivot and even the barrel retaining pin are jeweled.  When I bought the gun my intent was to polish out the jeweling but now I think not, it has grown on me and I will leave that for the next caretaker if they choose too.  Also, when I started this thread I hoped someone that knew something about the person that did the work would show up and comment.  After all it is unusual.  You may have, if not found the guy that did the work, at least given a reason why the jeweling may have been done.  Thank You.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #14 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 10:07pm
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Interestingly enough, when I saw what had been done to your rifle and the quality thereof, I was immediately reminded of my father's friend and the examples of his work that I saw back then.  I was a teenager and also arrogant in what relatively little I knew about "proper" restoration, so I was doubly appalled by what the fellow did.  But as my dad explained - after chewing me out about my attitude - jeweling provides a surface that helps retain the light coat of oil with which you periodically coat bare steel or iron.  This was long before the rust inhibitors we have today, of course.  But as you say, the result does have a certain charm all its own.  And also like you, I'd now choose to leave it alone.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #15 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 10:35pm
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Baystate block
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #16 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:09pm
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Rebel, interesting concept.  Couple questions though. Does it have a two piece firing pin or it the the pin bore loose enough so that the pin doesn’t bind up?  And how is it locked into place?
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #17 - Nov 17th, 2020 at 1:35am
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Interesting thread, as I have a Bay State in .32 Long. Have only seen one other in the flesh - should have bought it but didn't.

Out of scrap aluminum I made this breech seater, and shot .32 wadcutters in it that way for while.  Wasn't stellar accuracy, more like 2 MOA, but not to be sneezed at considering age and bore condition.  
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #18 - Nov 17th, 2020 at 1:48am
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Also have a .22 H&A medium frame that some anonymous 'smith lavished a lot of care on.  Linered the barrel, and scrupulously fitted that stupid blade extractor that H&A used so that it actually works! Gunbroker auction, paid a pittance because I was the only bidder.  Have yet to fire a round thru it, ashamed to say.   

This on top of my 722, 822, .22 Junior and 932, the last converted to fire .32 Long Colt CF.  I have a soft spot for H&A, I have.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #19 - Nov 17th, 2020 at 8:39am
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BobW,
The Baystate firing pin is "loose" and the dovetail retained by a setscrew near the link.
I have one of these (H&A) in 32-20 and it's a favorite.

Aaron
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2020 at 9:45am by Rebel »  

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bobw
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #20 - Nov 17th, 2020 at 12:07pm
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Thanks for the info Aaron.  32-20 would be fun.

uscra, really don’t know much about breech seating or wadcutters but if I remember correctly when I was a teenager everyone use to hang out at a gas station in town.  Everyone showed up About 5:30 everyday and several of the older guys would shoot into a trap in one the car stalls.  Winter in Iowa gets long!  They shot revolvers and pretty sure they said they were shooting wad cutters.  Boy was it loud!  Probably one of the reasons i’m half deaf.
Bob
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #21 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 8:47am
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Where would one look to find a tang sight as I see on some of the fine pictures above? I have my grandfathers 22 but the open sights are becoming a problem for me. Have looked at guns shows for years thinking I might run across a tang sight but no luck. The hole spacing is approx 1 1/8". 
Thanks for any info. 
John
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #22 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 9:43am
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My H&A in 32-20 has Remington hole spacing on the tang.

Aaron
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #23 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 10:39am
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Hi John, the 1-1/8" is the old Marlin spacing, first used on Ballards then lever guns. They are probably the second most common spacing after Winchester. E-bay is a good place to look, there are also second generation (currently made) Lyman and Marble sights available. There are other currently made repops and re-interpretations made by a number of suppliers. Among the best is MVA. There are others, the least expensive are imported.
So there you go, a little googling and I'm sure you can find something that suits your eye and hopefully fits your budget.
  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #24 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 11:33am
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Thanks guys. Will renew my quest. 
John
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #25 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 2:18pm
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The similarities between a Hopkins & Allen and a Walker-Hepburn are amazing. One of the cheapest vs. one of the most expensive.
Both operate almost the same way, except H&A got rid of the extreme drop and the Walker has an improved extractor
Often wondered who copied who. Don't know the dates.
Chuck
  
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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #26 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 3:45pm
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A Walker-Hepburn.  Had to search that one. An underlever version of the Remington Hepburn, yes?

Davenport's patent for what evolved into the Hopkins and Allen is dated 1885. Rifles were built on it until (?)1887.   If what I found on the Walker-Hepburn is correct, Walker's patent is dated 1886.  

Davenport's original design as manufactured by Bay State Arms had a far better extractor than the H&A medium frames. H&A's extractor was one of the great crimes committed on Davenport's design when they bought him out. They were trying for a switch-barrel gun that could accommodate everything from .22 rimfire to 20 gauge using the same extractor.  I think some ancestor of Rube Goldberg musta been a wheel at Merwin Hulbert.  H&A produced some real kludges while they were beholden to M-H.  That "set trigger" you find on some medium frame rifles is another prime example.  And the four-piece barrel-retaining taper pin found in Juniors.    

/rant off 
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2020 at 4:18pm by uscra112 »  

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Re: Hopkins and Allen 22 Rifle
Reply #27 - Nov 26th, 2020 at 5:20pm
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Ok, I just gave my rifle to the neighbors kid.....well, not really.  Grin

And what’s wrong with the extractor?  You just need patience, good fingernails and tip it up every time to get the empty out!  Cheesy
  

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