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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C.E. Overbaugh Ballard with a Checkered Past (Read 7068 times)
oneatatime
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #15 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 3:35pm
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Bobw, there is definitely a different treatment of the central swirl between the two. Yours is more elaborate.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #16 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 5:06pm
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Vall, I did a comparison between the thickness of the hammer and that of the sidewall on (the photo of) this rifle vs my Ballard. This one was 74% and mine was 85%. Has it been thinned enough to remove the rebate? Also, in the top view notice the shape of the flat crescent on the sidewall next to the hammer/block and compare it to one on a rebated sidewall.
  
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Joe Do...
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #17 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 5:49pm
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Val — the breech block halves match the serial number of the receiver. 

The receiver measures 1.255” wide at the receiver ring.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #18 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 9:19pm
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I've measured dozens of my Ballard rifles, and what Marlin described as "heavy receivers" might be a bit deceiving, as those with a step seem to measure very closely to those with flat sides. It's my opinion after measuring a lot of them from early 2 and 3 digit flat side "heavy" receivers, to rebated or stepped side, that the stepped side is pretty much the same width.
So Marlin simply added the step for aesthetics, and they weren't really any lighter in width. Mine measure as small as 1.255" wide, to as large as 1.285" wide for a flat side early receiver on an AW Peterson Ballard. But most of mine are in the 1.265"-1.275" range.

I don't think Joe's receiver has been reduced in width at his measurement, so I'm unsure if it ever had the normal JM Marlin stamp? Or maybe if it was a heavier 1.285" wide, it could have only been polished on one side to remove the JM Marlin stamp, and not on the right side.

I wonder if Overbaugh as a firearms notable, with his own shop, and contacts in the trade, had enough pull to request a half dozen semi finished, or unfinished receivers from Marlin, and then do final shaping himself? Maybe even order them internally machined and breech blocks fitted, which would explain them being serialized?

This is a real mystery rifle, and I'm excited to see something so unusual, and speculate on how it came to be! I really like the custom gun maker's work on Ballard rifles, and that's a neat example of it!
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #19 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 9:39pm
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oneatatime wrote on Oct 23rd, 2020 at 5:06pm:
Vall, I did a comparison between the thickness of the hammer and that of the sidewall on (the photo of) this rifle vs my Ballard. This one was 74% and mine was 85%. Has it been thinned enough to remove the rebate? Also, in the top view notice the shape of the flat crescent on the sidewall next to the hammer/block and compare it to one on a rebated sidewall.


Chauncey, I think it's very possible to round the top of a  rebated step side, and it would remove the step quite easily. 
I've spent this afternoon examining Joe's pictures, and a good number of my Ballard rifles with and without stepped receivers. They all had the little semi triangular flat on each side where the sloped sidewalls meet the receiver, whether stepped or flat side. With one exception! That heavy sided AW Peterson modified custom gun is a .22LR, built on a "heavy" flat side receiver. That's the thicker receiver that measures 1.285" wide, and it doesn't have those flats at all! The receiver sides just come right up to the vertical receiver ring back edge, without the two triangle shaped flats.
I didn't dig my 3 barrel pope out of it's case, and I should. It's a 500 range serial number flat side, and it might compare to the heavy side AW Peterson gun. It's got some oddities of it's own with the early receiver, and the set trigger system hangs well below the bottom of the receiver like the first year set trigger plates did. Those set trigger plates also ran the full length of the breech block, and not short like all later set trigger plates were.
I found this old picture just now, which shows my 3 barrel Pope receiver does have very easily seen flats at the junction. Even with a little blurry image.

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MrTipUp
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #20 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 9:40pm
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Overbaugh had the pull and the talent to get those 73 Sharps "German target rifles" made.  So I wouldn't be surprised if Marlin might have accommodated him as well.

By the way, Joe, is it a cast or forged receiver?

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #21 - Oct 23rd, 2020 at 9:46pm
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MrTipUp wrote on Oct 23rd, 2020 at 9:40pm:
Overbaugh had the pull and the talent to get those 73 Sharps "German target rifles" made.  So I wouldn't be surprised if Marlin might have accommodated him as well.

By the way, Joe, is it a cast or forged receiver?

Bill Lawrence


Well as a Sharps employee I'd agree he had pull with Sharps. Not sure if that would relate to pull with John Marlin or not? 
Marlin did seem to have a relationship with Sharps, as I've seen copies of a letter signed by John Marlin ordering a half dozen barrels from Sharps to use on Ballard rifles.
  

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oneatatime
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #22 - Oct 24th, 2020 at 12:32am
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Vall, it is just that the "flats" on my rifle look like 1/4 of a pie whereas these look like half an isosceles triangle but with the long side slightly rounded.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #23 - Oct 24th, 2020 at 10:57am
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oneatatime wrote on Oct 24th, 2020 at 12:32am:
Vall, it is just that the "flats" on my rifle look like 1/4 of a pie whereas these look like half an isosceles triangle but with the long side slightly rounded.


Since there's so much hand fitting, and finishing on these old Ballard rifles I see all sorts of different shaped "triangles" at that junction. No two are exactly alike, and considering this is a custom rifle the odds are even greater that area might be slightly reshaped. 
I see a number of differences on the sides of the receivers on Ballard riffles too. The majority have flat sides (with or without the step) but the edges of the flats round over without any noticeable line. But I've got a few where the transition from flat side to rounded over corners shows a distinct end to the flat where it meets the rounded corner. 
With all the hand finishing, it really depended on who did it, and how they did it that day. They pretty darn close considering the hand work.
  

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MrTipUp
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Re: Ballard with a Checkered Past (unknown maker)
Reply #24 - Oct 24th, 2020 at 11:35am
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It is my understanding that Charles E. Overbaugh is also generally given credit as the designer of the ultra-graceful Model 1877 Sharps.  But as a Sharps employee, he was a traveling salesman and an exhibition shooter; he did his actual gun smithing and gun building privately.

In short, Vall's suggestion that he would've had a relatively easy time getting favors from Sharps is likely valid.  But Overbaugh's reputation and obvious skills were just as likely known to John Marlin, too, perhaps well enough for Marlin to sell him a few not-fully-finished Ballard actions.

Bill Lawrence
  
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