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Martini Cadet 32-357- need help (Read 5432 times)

Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Oct 7^th, 2020 at 11:48am	Print Post
	Gentlemen, Thanks for your help with my Büchel Meister project- moving forward- the second rifle from my mentor's collection is an Australian Martini Cadet which he rechambered to 32-357 many years ago. Unfortunately the dies and mold got separated from the rifle and I'm working on getting it back to the range as well. I find there are numerous iterations of this chambering and need help figuring out what this one is and how to prepare proper ammo - The chamber cast reveals a shouldered case with COAL 1.273" - .345neck - .326" bore as seen in photo below. How are these cases formed? -any help would be appreciated. Thanks


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BudHyett Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 255 Location: Pacific Northwest, WA State Joined: Jun 25^th, 2011	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #1 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 1:32pm	Print Post
	Nice chamber cast, well done. Your .326 arrow points to the area of the leade in the chamber. The right side of the photo suggests a slight taper, giving the bullet guidance into the rifling. Can you drive a soft lead ball into the rifle to measure the diameter of the lands and grooves in front of the chamber? You want to cast a bullet that is bore diameter to .001 over bore diameter for best accuracy. If there is a club nearby shooting Schuetzen, or CBA Plain Base matches, attend them and get input from the veteran shooters. Getting the original mold will help. This appears to be a classic breech-seating setup, you want to see if a breech seater is in the missing equipment. You can also breech seat with a plugged case if the tool is not found. Welcome to the very exasperating and totally enjoyable world of breech-seated cast bullets.

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Jeff Houck Junior Member Offline Posts: 78 Location: Pocatello Joined: Jan 11^th, 2014	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #2 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 2:07pm	Print Post
	I'm not at home so don't have access to my books so I can't verify this, BUT this sure looks like it is a .256 winchester opened up to .32. Parent cartridge being the .357 mag. case of course. If it is then perhaps C&H might already have forming dies. Hope so! Jeff

	Jeff Houck
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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #3 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 2:52pm	Print Post
	Thanks very much BudHyett- The Bore measures .323" as many of these apparently do. The distance from case mouth to edge of rifling is .415". Unfortunately no clubs nearby and the original mold and dies, original equipment aren't available- so starting from scratch. I located some heeled bullets for fixed ammo from Buffalo Arms that are cast for the Cadet- i see thats a long lead into the rifling, but would fixed ammo also be an option? I guess my biggest challenge is case forming- how is that done for this type case? thanks again *very exasperating and interesting indeed!
	« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2020 at 3:01pm by Philtillotson »

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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #4 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 2:58pm	Print Post
	Thanks Jeff Houck- I appreciate your response and look forward to anything you can tell me about this very interesting cartridge- Loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds but have never done case forming before- always something new to learn, isn't there! thanks again


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BudHyett Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 255 Location: Pacific Northwest, WA State Joined: Jun 25^th, 2011	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #5 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 3:20pm	Print Post
	Philtillotson wrote on Oct 7^th, 2020 at 2:52pm: The Bore measures .323" as many of these apparently do. - Yes, there is no standardization between the .32 caliber and the 8mm bore sizes. The distance from case mouth to edge of rifling is .415". - This can be bridged with the heavier bullets. NOE offers many mold styles in the .321 to .326 nominal size and the diameter can be slightly regulated by alloy mixture and heat of casting pot. Unfortunately no clubs nearby and the original mold and dies, original equipment aren't available- so starting from scratch. - The CBA website publishes match results including equipment, the ASSRA magazine sometimes publishes the equipment also. These can be a resource. I located some heeled bullets for fixed ammo from Buffalo Arms that are cast for the Cadet - What weight bullet? I see that's a long leade into the rifling, but would fixed ammo also be an option? - Yes, the question is the twist rate of the barrel to stabilize the longer bullets that fill this gap. I guess my biggest challenge is case forming- how is that done for this type case? Jeff Houck has a good thought, the question is where to get .256 Hawkeye in this climate of brass shortage. Correct dies and Imperial Sizing Die Wax with patience are key. Step down using the stripped seating die to rough form and them final form with the stripped sizing die. I form .25-20 WCF from .32-20 WCF and have had to anneal certain lot numbers since this is a long way to go.

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Jeff Houck Junior Member Offline Posts: 78 Location: Pocatello Joined: Jan 11^th, 2014	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #6 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 4:44pm	Print Post
	Call CH4D, (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) and see what they say. They'll probably request a chamber cast. Case forming isn't difficult if you have a set of forming dies that will form the case in several small steps CH4D specializes in this sort of thing. What twist rate is the barrel? The long throat may be because a long heavy bullet was barely seated in the case and extended into that throat with an enlarged bullet body and the the nose of the bullet just touched the rifling. If the twist rate is very fast, fast enough for a 200ish grain bullet then this would help answer what bullet to use. Jeff

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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #7 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 10:31pm	Print Post
	Thanks Jeff- I appreciate your help. I do know that the barrel is stock- but i don't know what the twist rate is for it, sorry


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Longdistance1 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 429 Location: Amidon, ND Joined: Feb 11^th, 2013	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #8 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 11:32pm	Print Post
	You could form brass for that with a sizeing die for 7.65 Luger or a 7.63 mauser sizer die then fire form in your chamber to blow the neck out to .32 LD1 Here's a pic of a 38 Special formed to 8.15x24 in a 7.65 luger die, trimmed, And fireformed
	« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2020 at 11:47pm by Longdistance1 »

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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #9 - Oct 9^th, 2020 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	Longdistance1- Thanks very much- that's the kind of information I was seeking. I've read in several places that annealing is a part of this process as is a good lube. Do you anneal the cases before forming as well? Thanks again.


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bnice Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1851 Location: Iowa Joined: Nov 30^th, 2006	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #10 - Oct 9^th, 2020 at 8:16pm	Print Post
	Did you happen to find the reamer he rechambered with? If so you could maybe make a sizer with it. Or at least check the reamer company for possible dies. By the way not anything like my Pacific Tool and Gage’s 32-357. They make reamers for two that I remember. Both are a straight taper no bottle neck. One has significant free bore the other doesn’t. Mine doesn’t, it goes right into a breech seat throat.


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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1752 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #11 - Oct 9^th, 2020 at 9:39pm	Print Post
	Another thought is to use a shortened 300 blackout die for forming. Body is same as the 357M, and neck down looks Very Much like the 300BO neck area. Same story , then fire form or use a Lyman 8mm M die to open up to 32 cal. I have formed some interesting rimmed 30 cal cases reforming 357 Maxi cases in my 300 BO dies. Probably easier to find than the luger or mauser pistol dies , in fact you can get a set of LEE dies in 300 BO. They work well for me for my BO. beltfed/arnie


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Longdistance1 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 429 Location: Amidon, ND Joined: Feb 11^th, 2013	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #12 - Oct 9^th, 2020 at 10:46pm	Print Post
	Phil, I tried annealing but the cases collapsed, these cases were new Starline and are pretty hard, should probably anneal after sizeing and before fireforming. I used 2.8 gr of Bullseye and filled the case with cornmeal for fireforming, should have used a little more. Use Imperial sizeing wax to size the case down, a little bit go's a long ways, run the case into the die untill it feels tough back out and smear the wax around on the case and back in the die may take 2 or 3 trips. Hope it helps LD1 PS don't try forming with nickel plated case's! Also clean the die and prelube it with a little Imperial sizeing wax on a Q-tip
	« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2020 at 11:56am by Longdistance1 »

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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #13 - Oct 10^th, 2020 at 12:30pm	Print Post
	Thank you bnice, beltfed and Londistance1- these are the bits of information I was missing- thank you very much, Gentlemen. I don't have any of the former equipment- reamer, dies, molds - just the rifle, so it will all be reconstruction from scratch. I have 8mm dies and can get any others i need to accomplish the caseforming process. I've never fireformed dramatically different cases into another form- the cornmeal trick is a very clever way to fill the case. I am going to get started with case forming soon and will let you know how it goes- I expect there will be further questions , with your indulgence. Thank you again.


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Philtillotson Participating Member Offline Posts: 18 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2019	Re: Martini Cadet 32-357- need help Reply #14 - Oct 11^th, 2020 at 11:46am	Print Post
	Longdistance1- you did your fireforming with an appropriate charge of pistol powder and the rest cornmeal- did you use a bullet or seal the case another way? I saw in another thread that someone else put hot glue on top of the cornmeal- is that a common practice if not seating a bullet? Are there other ways to fireform without seating a bullet? thanks again


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