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Bulseyetom
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Can I use expander die for compression?
Jun 7th, 2020 at 7:25pm
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I am using a BACO compression plug for my 40-70 SS and it measures 0.400 in diameter.  Getting it into the case is a hit or miss but you better not try to compress the powder if you don't feel the plug slip into the case.  Don,t ask me what happens if you do!  Embarrassed  Anyway, sometimes it takes 8 or 10 tries to get it into the case.  Always looking for the easy way, I thought of using my expander die which is tapered severely on the tip to compress the powder after inserting the wad.  I measured the flat part of the tip and it is only 0.30 give or take.  Will that create a problem with the wad flexing too much and not seating square?  I am not a machinist so can't modify it too much but thought about grinding a very small taper.  What do the big boys use to compress the powder?  Thanks.  Tom
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #1 - Jun 7th, 2020 at 7:53pm
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I've had the same problem with a compression die folding the neck over on a cartridge after I had loaded the powder. I've used the expander die but it does deform the wad a lot. Grind or file a slight taper on the expander plug. You can hold the plug in a drill press or even a hand drill to do this. I'm sure you can get it to work at much larger than .30"
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #2 - Jun 7th, 2020 at 8:54pm
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Shiloh makes .40 and .45 cal compression dies that work completely differently.  No real chance of damaging the case mouth.  They index off of the case mouth so you want to ensure that your brass is of uniform length.

I hope it's OK to post a link.  I have no affiliation with Shiloh except that I've bought some of their rifles Smiley

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Chris.
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #3 - Jun 7th, 2020 at 10:10pm
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Chris, that's a clever idea for sure as you can see what is going on instead of trying to feel the plug entering the case.  I think I solved my problem by reverting back to my old Lyman tong tools.  I have been using one to deprime now that I am not sizing the brass very often and have one set up to deprime 30 caliber and above and another die for 22 caliber to 30.  They work slick.  I dug in the old box of 310 dies and found a seating die for a 45-70 that I will never use again and it measured 0.39 so I filed the recess for the bullet nose off and gave it a try.  Twenty times easier than the BACO die and seemed to work without damaging a thing.  So now I am using my grandfather's Ideal tools made god knows when and my Herter's turret press that my dad bought in 1960 when we retired the Ideal for 30-06 and I just used it for my 7x57.  Tom
  
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bpjack
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #4 - Jun 7th, 2020 at 10:52pm
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I use a Lee hand press for all operations except full-length sizing.  It gives you a better feel for where the die is.  I even added an arbitrary scale that can be used to see how much compression there is.   

Jack
  

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Ranch13
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #5 - Jun 8th, 2020 at 9:07am
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Yes you can use an expander die to compress the powder. Just be sure that the diameter of the expander doesn't open the case mouth to far.
The BACO expanders work well , but you do have to be sure that the case is fully pushed into the shell holder and the wad is below the case mouth. It also helps a lot if you bevel the front edge of that expander just a bit so that it's not quite as sharp.
  
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #6 - Jun 9th, 2020 at 8:48am
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I make all my compression dies on a lathe starting with a 7/8" bolt. The die hole diameter needs to be sized for a slip fit to the case you are using, that way it self centers with the compression plug which has minimum chamfer on it. No problem with this set up even with long 40-90 cases.
kw
  
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boats
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #7 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 7:12am
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I make compression plugs that fit regular M die bodies.  Easy way is start with the correct size bolt then turn down the end to suit the cartridge case, A little bit of taper On the end helps inserting the die.  Does not take much.  

Lots of M bodies available here is a link. Get one that suits your cartridge O/A length and Diameter. Too big allows easy misalignment 

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Often thought about buying a large internal diamater  M body & sleveing with a leade to index the case before the compression plug enters.  Never tried it .    Agree some of the loading tools you buy on line must be made by people that don't load cartridges 

Boats
« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2020 at 7:21am by boats »  
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craigd
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #8 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 7:59am
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Since it takes so many attempts to start the compression plug, I think there might be some die/shell holder setup misalignment?
  
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boats
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #9 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 12:11pm
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Most presses the shell holder ram fits are sloppy. Thats why taper is needed were the case enters the die. Compression plug no taper is recipe for trouble.   

Boats
  
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craigd
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #10 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 2:07pm
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Dies or parts of dies can be locked down out of true. The usual example is seeing a decapping pin noticeably off center. Sometimes, some play in the shell holder is intentional, it can help with a bit of self centering, but if there’s some sort of spring clip retainer, there may be uneven contact due to uneven pressure and the brass can sit slightly tipped. 

I don’t assume my presses are true, but if I settle on a good setup, I try to use the same press, shell holder, die rings left in place, etc., if I pull out a set of dies to use. There’s probably tons of ways to skin a cat, but I’d guess the compression plug hits the mouth of the case in a similar area. Only thoughts.
  
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boats
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #11 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 2:14pm
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Craig agree with you. Locked down tight can cause trouble. Really die should establish concentric. All the press ram and shellholder do is press. Floating not inducing something else in the process best. 

If you look at the small arbor presses bench shooters use They don’t have fixed shell holders or screwed in dies. Everything floats.

Boats
  
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #12 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 4:59pm
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In addition to what Craig and Boats are saying the heads on many of our cartidges aren't truly square to the mouth of the case. Getting it straight can even cause new problems. I tried and gave up while shooting bench matches. I ended up with sets of cases by buying tons of new and going through it until I got enough. Sold the culls to varmint shooters as having been weighed and trimmed. Took a while.
  
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #13 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 5:43pm
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I use an expander die to compress powder charges.
  

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Bulseyetom
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Re: Can I use expander die for compression?
Reply #14 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 6:13pm
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I just loaded a bunch more of 40-70 SS while compressing with the tong tool and I am sold on that idea.  I might have to invest in a 40-70 seating die for it!  Tom   Smiley
  
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