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Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy (Read 13781 times)

texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1893 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #15 - May 30^th, 2020 at 12:53pm	Print Post
	texasmac wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 12:08pm: marlinguy wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 11:41am: texasmac wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 12:00am: Mike, Excellent point about the wad possibly eliminating the effects of a damage base. I've heard that some cast bullet shooters do not use a wad at all. In that case they should rethink their loading technique. It was a long time ago but I have shot cast bullets without wads and without gas checks in .357mag and .445mag and noted base gas cutting damage. Wayne [/size] I believe Mike's statement might be directed at BP cast bullet shooting, since most who shoot smokeless cast loads do not use wads. Wads can create some dangerous situations when used with smokeless powders, so they normally aren't used. I sure wouldn't ever use a wad with smokeless powder. marlinguy, Can you further explain why a hard fiber or poly wad between smokeless powder and the bullet might create a dangerous condition? Wayne marlinguy, I was thinking about your comment & I understand that it's dangerous to use any type of wad if there is an airspace between the wad and the bullet when using smokeless powder. Now, if there's no airspace between the powder, wad and bullet I would not expect any problems, especially if the smokeless powder is under compression. Do you agree? The latter example is when using a wad to protect the bullet base from fire cutting or flame cutting when using a cast bullet without a gas check. Wayne

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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #16 - May 30^th, 2020 at 2:19pm	Print Post
	texasmac wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 9:07am: Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 1:07am: texasmac wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 12:02am: Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 29^th, 2020 at 10:58pm: I didn't see a target with the bullets pointed in the right direction for comparison Guess they shot so bad it was embarrassing, so he published the backwards target? There are 5 targets displayed in the article. They are small and a little hard to see but the shot pattern if visible. Possibly you missed them. Wayne I saw all 5. They each have a note about their defect. No normal target displayed. Now I understand. You're looking for a target shot with undamaged bullets. Wayne Yup, no baseline

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #17 - May 30^th, 2020 at 2:34pm	Print Post
	I used to insert a vegetable fiber wad and then the bullet into the breech seater for several years. Until by luck one day I noticed a wad that was turned sideways about half way down the barrel that didn't exit the bore. I believe any type of defect can have an ill effect but I also purposely put a small chamfer on the bullets base. I have found that it helps to eliminate any fins that can and do create ill effects. Those fins are a defect that most probably don't even think about or might not even be aware of all though they should. Below is a good example of the fins / fining that I am talking about if look at the base of the bullet real close. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3560 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #18 - May 30^th, 2020 at 2:39pm	Print Post
	I'd protest it as a boat-tail bullet and therefore not allowed by the ASSRA and nontraditional. What say?


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #19 - May 30^th, 2020 at 3:25pm	Print Post
	Blindeye you are indeed correct and that comment would not have been made if it were brought up by anyone else. Unfortunately it was also not all helpful to the subject that is being discussed. And for those who are seeking to get more accuracy out of the current bullets that we all use. But thanks to that comment you brought up a very good a point. It could be those older bullet mould makers who added the bevel to their design might have had the issue of fining on their minds.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #20 - May 30^th, 2020 at 3:53pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 2:34pm: I believe any type of defect can have an ill effect but I also purposely put a small chamfer on the bullets base. I have found that it helps to eliminate any fins that can and do create ill effects. Those fins are a defect that most probably don't even think about or might not even be aware of all though they should. Below is a good example of the fins / fining that I am talking about if look at the base of the bullet real close. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) I have wondered about the defects caused around the base of the bullet left by the rifling. Ever think of trying smooth bore? That should eliminate them.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #21 - May 30^th, 2020 at 4:07pm	Print Post
	Blindeye here is a picture of the bevel that I put on the base. It doesn't take very much of a bevel to provide enough space for that fin being pushed back to fill in and to no longer be there. Should you like to try it someday it only takes a couple of light cuts with a chamfering tool with the tit removed. It also self centers the bullet by it's own design and also makes the edge of base perfectly round at the same time. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #22 - May 30^th, 2020 at 4:16pm	Print Post
	BobZ I don't quite understand what it is you might be asking?

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3560 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #23 - May 30^th, 2020 at 4:58pm	Print Post
	Since I sometimes try a small bevel on a bullet base, I'll pass a tip to y'all. If you have an old Herter's chamfering tool, it's ready to go as is. No tit to interfere. Anybody know what that damn post is in there for? I don't have a clue.


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #24 - May 30^th, 2020 at 5:47pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on May 30^th, 2020 at 4:16pm: BobZ I don't quite understand what it is you might be asking? The little defects the rifling puts all around the base of bullet. Even a chamfer will have those little dimples on the trailing edge. The chamfer just moves the edge slightly forward.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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rgchristensen Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1088 Joined: Jan 2^nd, 2014	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #25 - May 30^th, 2020 at 6:26pm	Print Post
	So far, everyone seems to have missed the point made by FW Mann, that metal missing from any point in a bullet will cause a certain deflection in a certain direction. BUT, if metal is missing from the front of a bullet, it will cause an aerodynamic deflection in the opposite direction tending to nullify the effect, whilst if the mass is missing from the rear of the bullet, the aerodynamic deflection will be in the SAME direction, re-inforcing the effect. This was all understood a century ago...... Maybe "aerodynamic" is not quite the right term here -- maybe "gyroscopic/aerodynamic" would be closer. However, referring to "The Bullets Flight" will make it clear. CHRIS


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #26 - May 30^th, 2020 at 6:39pm	Print Post
	No different than if the bullet were being muzzle loaded would that not be correct. Even if the bore were smooth the bullet alloy would still be being displaced and pushed back creating a fin on the bullets base. There are something's that we just have to live with but on the other hand that we can also eliminate. Some might ask when is good good enough and the answer to that is when they all go through the same hole. The goal as a competitive benchrest shooter like myself is to get as close to that as I possibly can. Even Pope had that state of mind and why he bent the trunions on his Hi-Wall action to hold up the lever and breech block in it's place. It was an unnecessary variable that was and still is easy to eliminate. It's the lack of variables that can get those like myself to be able to get closer and closer to achieving that one hole goal. I also understand it is not everyone's nor does everyone care but the goal is to try and help all of those that actually do by us sharing with each other along with everyone else.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16076 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #27 - May 30^th, 2020 at 9:17pm	Print Post
	Yes Wayne, that is the issue with smokeless powders and wads; the air space, and chance that the wad would sit on the powder, and not be against the bullet base. Ringing the chamber, or even splitting the barrel have happened when wads are used with smokeless that doesn't fill the case. If whatever smokeless used somehow fills the case like BP does, there shouldn't be an issue.

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Mick B Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1004 Location: 19 Ian Nicol St watson ACT aus Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #28 - May 30^th, 2020 at 10:06pm	Print Post
	Not to add fuel to the fire but I'm having trouble getting my head around, how a wad, as described by Mr Louis, managed to stop sideways, halfway down the barrel, when upon ignition, it would have been slammed against the bullets base and then propelled down the barrel at probably 1,600 fps,hard up against the base of the bullet, just wondering. It is my understanding that Mr H Pope, considered that the advantage of muzzle loading the bullet was in the fact that any metal displaced, as the bullet was forced into the barrel, would be towards the front of the bullet, thereby having little effect on accuracy. A simple test of bullet metal displacement can be done by simply breech seating a bullet and then pushing it back out and examining the base, where you will find some evidence of fining. Perhaps making the bullet diameter slightly smaller than the groove diameter may reduce this fining, as may the effect of a wad made from a material such as LDPE hitting the base of the bullet with considerable force during ignition. Guess we will never know. Mike. Just my 2c worth


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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1752 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Bullet Damage vs. Accuracy Reply #29 - May 30^th, 2020 at 10:20pm	Print Post
	Wayne, I might add "when the wad is "at"/ against the base of the bullet". beltfed/arnie


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