Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Brass wall thickness info needed (Read 7076 times)
oneatatime
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3863
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: Oct 30th, 2011
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #15 - May 9th, 2020 at 7:27pm
Print Post  
Was Ackley giving the diameter for the chamber neck or the cartridge neck? The reamer would be for the chamber, no?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bulseyetom
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 953
Location: Santa Maria, Ca
Joined: Oct 31st, 2010
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #16 - May 9th, 2020 at 8:13pm
Print Post  
The dimensions on 4d reamer shows reamer at neck of 0.253 for both the 219 Zipper and Improved.  I see Baco uses Starline 38/55 to form 219 and my Starline 38/55 is just over 0.080.   
  
Back to top
Twitter  
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 1923
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #17 - May 9th, 2020 at 10:22pm
Print Post  
Another ther part of the equation is to fire form once you have the brass necked down. This will expand the brass to fit your chamber, and as was noted you will have some spring back. Then rather than running the brass thru a full length sizer, which reduces the neck more than necessary, either buy a bushing neck die, or have Jim Carstensen convert your full length size die to use bushings. Having your die converted would be the most cost efficient solution. You accomplish three things, you can control neck tension, you reduce working the brass, and by turning the necks if you choose to, you have made the whole system more concentric, generally leading to finer accuracy. I have had numerous dies converted for some really obscure cartridges, and have been more than pleased with the results. The last time I had one done, the cost was fifty dollars, and the turn around time was really quick. If interested, I can get you his contact information. He is a competitive bench rest shooter and does excellent work. He resides in Iowa.
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bulseyetom
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 953
Location: Santa Maria, Ca
Joined: Oct 31st, 2010
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #18 - May 9th, 2020 at 10:39pm
Print Post  
I second Jim Carstensen.  He converted a die for me in 7mm Ackley Krag and I just size about a 1/4" of the neck.  The rest of the neck centers the case in the chamber.  I also have had Whidden make me a die in a 6mm-30/30 Improved because I could not find a parent die for Jim to convert.  The die is easily used as a f/l if needed or just size part of the neck most of the time.  I also think Harrell's makes custom dies but have never used them.  The proper die will still not fix the problem of too thin of a neck but should increase accuracy.  You could have Rocky Mountain turn some custom brass if you think the problem warrants better fitting brass but that is not a cheap solution either.  What are you currently using for a sizing die?  Tom
  
Back to top
Twitter  
IP Logged
 
cubcadet70
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Joined: Sep 21st, 2018
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #19 - May 9th, 2020 at 11:16pm
Print Post  
Thanks for more info.

I currently use 22-250 Seater and FL dies to load my 219 zipper imp. The FL only sizes my neck since the body of the 22-250 is bigger than 219 zipper imp. Even my fresh brass just came off the forming dies has .249” body with a bullet seated in it. So I don’t suspect it’s the forming dies. You have a good idea with that bushing. That might be what I need to do. Ideally I would like to send the a blank formed cartridge off and get a Wilson seat die made for it. Might as well get a mandrel die made with it. 

I will try shoot the rifle sometimes next week and report back what size neck it expanded to.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7542
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #20 - May 10th, 2020 at 7:38am
Print Post  
Let me approach it a different way, caution am no expert and most on this forum know more about it than I do.

Wall thickness 30/30 and brass on 38/55 head size is going to be “about” 0.011. variation brand to brand and lot to lot.  Only way to get precise wall thickness is turn all same. Most common issue necking down wall thickness will increase & neck turning needed to bring it back to uniform.

Problem is to get the case to fit your bullet and chamber. Bullet first, cast vey different than jacketed. Most use cast bullets oversize and can’t stand much swaging while being seated. Jacketed bullet can accept a tight case fit not happy with over bore size.  First thing is determine what bullet Diameter you need then prepare the case to suit.

Next is sizing the case neck to suit the ideal bullet diameter. Most factory dies over size then open up with expander dies. Easy to use different size expanders and get it right, overworks the brass most times.

I prefer sizing to fit one step with bushing neck sizing dies, from the outside. Less working brass and precise. Problem is you can get neck sizer bushings in any size near impossible to calculate in advance exactly what size is going to work. Try several pick the right one, change bullet or brass another likely to be optional. Having said all that over sizing and opening with expanders works OK

If cast bullet most times with a neck sized case need to run a too small expander die in to give a slight flare, jacketed not needed.   

Loaded it all has to fit your chamber. Factory ammo always undersized for trouble free function. Expands on firing to seal and springs back allowing easy extraction. High pressure helps seal.  Cast bullet lower pressure often gets blow by & dirty necks. Better fit cures it, single shot no feed issue often extra flare helps seal.

Manuals standards or books will get you close not exact. So many variables bullet case chamber bore and pressure on firing tuning the loaded cartridge the individual rifle only way to get it right.

CH4D my pick for neck sizers or expanders. Have adjusted both myself starting with oversize or undersize.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dellet
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1088
Joined: May 19th, 2017
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #21 - May 10th, 2020 at 11:08am
Print Post  
I have been down this road before, part of the problem is pre/post war brass. Somebody with early brass may be able to confirm this.

Then looking at Ackley’s Handbook for shooters and reloaders, it is the chamber dimension that is .253”, I do not see a loaded round dimension given. Normally at least .003-005” chamber clearance Suggests a neck thickness probably closer to .012” in the brass used at the time.

Hope that may help some.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7542
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #22 - May 10th, 2020 at 1:41pm
Print Post  
Thats true, .25 Krag from 100 + year old .30 Army brass different problem compared to modern 30/40 Brass. Its wall thickness and Diameter at the base.

Every gun and case is a different thing

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bulseyetom
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 953
Location: Santa Maria, Ca
Joined: Oct 31st, 2010
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #23 - May 10th, 2020 at 5:06pm
Print Post  
If there was ever a wildcat with more variations then the 219 Zipper Improved I really don't know about it, unless some of the ones based on the Krag case.  I strongly suggest that you check into Whidden dies ( (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)) and forget about the Wilson dies.  I have many Wilson dies and the advantage of the Whidden makes the added cost worth it to me.  I use Vickerman seating dies for most of my wildcats.  Tom
  
Back to top
Twitter  
IP Logged
 
oneatatime
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3863
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: Oct 30th, 2011
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #24 - May 10th, 2020 at 5:27pm
Print Post  
Thanks, Tom, you reminded me I have a Vickerman 22 seating die - somewhere.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
beltfed
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1751
Location: Central Wi
Joined: Dec 20th, 2007
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #25 - May 10th, 2020 at 8:48pm
Print Post  
Do the chamber cast, so you really do know what the chamber neck diameter is.
Also, you could ask Douglas what is the neck diameter of the
reamer used. 
And remember that the necks of that 30-30 brass will
get thicker when necked down to 22. 
beltfed/arnie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cubcadet70
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Joined: Sep 21st, 2018
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #26 - May 16th, 2020 at 2:26pm
Print Post  
Fired formed me some brass last night. The neck measured .251-.2515” after fire formed. The bullet is slip fit after formed. I ran it in the neck die half way in the neck like one member  suggested on here to do. Will shoot these and come back with results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bulseyetom
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 953
Location: Santa Maria, Ca
Joined: Oct 31st, 2010
Re: Brass wall thickness info needed
Reply #27 - May 16th, 2020 at 3:29pm
Print Post  
My reloading methods changed dramatically when I started trying to shoot competitive at 100 yards with a 6ppc bolt gun where a 5 shot group of over 0.250 was probably not going to get you very far.  One thing I changed was to only neck size at most one caliber in length and to seat with the bullet engaging the lands.  Now this doesn't work for hunting as you don't want to extract an unfired case and have the bullet end up stuck in the barrel but I still barely neck size for my hunting rifles most of the time.  Now that I am shooting more black I don't size at all.  I think that you will find sizing half way down the neck will allow the other half to center the round in the chamber and also help seal.  I always remember the old timer's who were helping me with the 6ppc saying that you wanted a fan shaped soot pattern but don't remember why or what we changed to get it.  Keep us posted.  Tom
  
Back to top
Twitter  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint