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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) .58 or .577 (Read 3900 times)
kenysd
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.58 or .577
Mar 16th, 2020 at 1:48pm
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I've just noticed something.  I have two CW rifle muskets.   
a Springfield type III and a Remington Zouave.
   both are great condition and the Zouave is 'unissued'. almost perfect.
    note:  while the Springfield takes a .582 Minnie ball,in  the Zouave  it is too tight.  Makes me thing the Remington is .577 like the Enfield and the US Spring. is .58.  anyone notice this?
  
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desert-dude
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #1 - Mar 16th, 2020 at 1:54pm
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The real experts are over on the north-south-skirmish-site. 
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
It may resolve itself in to a question of tolerances.
  
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boats
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #2 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 7:57am
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Minne rifles bores varied. Springfield, Enfield & many contract makers like your Remington.  One of the Minnie balls advantages was able to handle different guns. Cast them soft the base expands to suit the gun.

Book you want to buy is “The Rifled Musket” by Claude Fuller.

Boats
  
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KFW
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 8:48am
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Minie ball molds come in several diameters, weights and profiles. Also thick skirt and thin. You will need to start with a ball that just enters the bore--a slip fit piston like entry is where you want to be. A 45-60 gr. load is all that's needed. 
kw
  
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Chuckster
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 10:39am
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Weren't the Zouave's originally .54 caliber?
Arsenal rebored to .58 during the war.
Tolerances might be a little loose.
Chuck
  
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boats
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #5 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:00am
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Have to decide how you want to use the rifle. During the war only concern was will it work. Today you can tailor the Minnie Ball to suit the gun and purpose. Have narrowed it down to two molds. Original Minnie from a Lyman mold and a “trash can” from a Lee mold. Trash can is lighter & larger. Flat nose punches holes in paper better, bore needs to be wiped often. Bullet was designed for reinactor competiton.

The Original style is more difficult to cast. Removable base plug will cool faster then the mold causing rejects on base wall condition if you don’t pay attention.  It shoots all day without wiping. Ram rod starts to go down hard base scrapes the bore and she goes back to easy loading. 

I don’t know if the larger better fitting Trash can is any more accurate. Mine (custom American built reproduction mix of original parts with a modern barrel) is a 4 moa rifle. Never been shot off a bench, 50 yards offhand no obvious difference. 500 yards the 585 gr original shoots to the leaf sight. Trash can won’t.  Strikes all around a 55 gallon drum at 500 & sometimes hits it.  Battle rifle massed fire at that distance it must have been a very effective weapon.

Boats
  
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kenysd
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #6 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:07am
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thanks guys.  just thinking now that we are home, with out wives..alone!
      I fired  the Zouave with the 582 and it worked, but got hard to load.  the Springfield will shoot all day with them.
   no. it's not .52 like the Sharps etc.  it's a .58.
   no matter, nice gun  and interesting topic.
  and yes.   pure lead is best, but I have a bunch of 1 in 20 that I'll shoot someday,   Ken
  
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boats
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #7 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:20am
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One of the CW shows in Richmond I bought the cleaning rod reinactors  actors  use. It’s large diameter Aluminum with a large file style handle, Delrin tight fitting bore bushing and tight fitting Delrin plug jag. It’s fast and very effective.

Anybody wants to make one I can take the dims off mine for you.

Boats
  
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ndnchf
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #8 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:29am
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I have a Remington rolling block Transformed rifle, chambered in .58 Roberts. Remington built these rifles using surplus Springfield musket barrels, stocks and parts.  I make cartridges with a brass case filled with 60gr of FFG and a 520 gr. minie that is .594" diameter.  That is pretty close to grove diameter.
  
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boats
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #9 - Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:34am
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60 grs of 2 F is what you want. However I was told the Trash can bullet worked best with 40 grs of 3 F. Not surprising, Cowboy action shooters use powder puff loads too, short range speed events.

Want to see a Trash can look at Lee’s 575-472 & 578-478

Boats
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:41am by boats »  
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Jack951
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #10 - May 5th, 2020 at 3:40pm
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boats wrote on Mar 17th, 2020 at 11:34am:
60 grs of 2 F is what you want. However I was told the Trash can bullet worked best with 40 grs of 3 F. Not surprising, Cowboy action shooters use powder puff loads too, short range speed events.

Want to see a Trash can look at Lee’s 575-472 & 578-478

Boats


New guy to the board here

I am an N-SSA Competitor. In musket competition I shoot either a 62 Colt Contract (Springfield) or a P58 Enfield Parker Hale.

Yes, bore size vary. My Colts are both 580 and the Parker Hale 576. In the Colts, I shoot the "trashcan" Minie from a Rapine mold. Lee copied it and it's only been available in 575 AFAIK. Add to that, Lee has discontinued it. I also shoot RCBS Hogdon and Lyman 580213s. Properly sized, they can be quite accurate. I've shoot sub 2moa with the Parker Hale.

Service charge was 60g 2f. We've found that best accuracy is with about 42g 3f. That works out to about 48g 2f in terms of power. These aren't exactly powderpuff loads like the cowboy types shoot and our competition is timed and scored based on the time. All targets are breakable, unbroken count against your team. So at Nationals, you're on the firing line with your other 7 teammates shooting against as many as 60 other teams all at once. Open fire. Clocks running. Fastest time wins. No pressure.
  

A gentleman cannot have too much red wine, too many good books nor too much ammunition
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #11 - May 6th, 2020 at 7:24pm
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Jack did not mean to sound negative on “Powderpuff” trashcan Minnes. Silhouette shooters that need knock down at distance coined that term & Silhouette large part of my experience .

Trash can as shot by NSSA is a very good target bullet. Original Minne is very effective at distance. Combination the two good plan.

Boats
  
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oneatatime
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #12 - May 6th, 2020 at 7:54pm
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On a somewhat related subject, I was just reading a reprint of The Photographic History of the Civil War published in 1911. In the Prisons and Hospitals section of Volume 4, a written discussion by a war long Confederate Surgeon was quoted saying "Conical-ball wounds in the abdomen were nearly always fatal, far more so than those produced by the round ball with lower velocity. The intestines, in the former case, were generally perforated; in the latter, they often escaped this injury by being pushed aside by the slower moving round ball fired from the smooth-bore gun. The reverse of this was the case in wounds of the chest, since the round ball bruised and lacerated a large area of lung tissue, while the more swiftly moving conical ball often produced a clean-cut wound."
  
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Jack951
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2020 at 8:45am
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boats wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 7:24pm:
Jack did not mean to sound negative on “Powderpuff” trashcan Minnes. Silhouette shooters that need knock down at distance coined that term & Silhouette large part of my experience .

Trash can as shot by NSSA is a very good target bullet. Original Minne is very effective at distance. Combination the two good plan.

Boats


No worries on the "powderpuff" thing. The guys who really do shoot that type of ammo are the cowboy action guys.

The thing most folks don't understand about minies is that they have a "range" of powder charge where they are most accurate. All that stuff depends on powder, lube, skirt thickness, etc as to whether any given rifle will shoot any given minie.

The "trashcan" is an outstanding 50yd bullet as is the full wadcutter in a 38special. It also is a great hunting round within limits. 400gr soft lead at 1kfps will leave a mark duct tape and bandaids can't fix. Much past 75yds, it can start to get unstable.

One of my "distance" bullets is the RCBS Hogdon, but it isn't consistent to the point I fully trust it for competition if there's any wind. The Lyman 575213 is over 100gr heavier and is much better in that aspect. I have that mold but it drops at 581 which isn't a problem for me as both my 62 Colts need a 579ish bullet.
  

A gentleman cannot have too much red wine, too many good books nor too much ammunition
Rudyard Kipling

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kenysd
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Re: .58 or .577
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:05am
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hope this picture posts.    enjoy...Ken
  
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